I'm continually surprised at many of the levels that various books, websites, and movies show up being categorized as in Holons (and by Ken himself).  I'm wondering what a story has to have to prove it's mettle and be dubbed Teal or Turquoise.  For a specific example, what would a kids book (featuring superheroes or monsters) have to do to be considered Turquoise?  Or how would the organization Union of Concerned Scientists earn one of the pretty shades beyond green from the I-I team?

Help a gal out here?

-Turtle
can I be a Turquoise Turtle?

randomturtle:

I'm continually surprised at many of the levels that various books, websites, and movies show up being categorized as in Holons (and by Ken himself).  I'm wondering what a story has to have to prove it's mettle and be dubbed Teal or Turquoise.  For a specific example, what would a kids book (featuring superheroes or monsters) have to do to be considered Turquoise?

Why would anybody want to write a Turquoise kid's book? It's way above the level of kids, so it's entirely appropriate for a kid's book to be at Red, for instance. There's nothing wrong with a book being at a particular level; people at Amber want to read as well! The definition that Ken uses for integral art, is art that has been created by an artist at an integral level of awareness. In that sense, a children's book can be at Turquoise, but any higher-level stuff that consciously or subconsciously gets into that book, will be lost entirely on children reading such a book.

They also place Beck's new album at Green, and to me that seems to be right as well. That doesn't mean I don't like Beck, in fact I enjoy Midnight Vultures immensely, while that's not integral either. I also saw him playing live in Amsterdam, and the second half of that performance was great, so he's at least partly great

Or how would the organization Union of Concerned Scientists earn one of the pretty shades beyond green from the I-I team?

By realising that there are developmental hierarchies, and incorporating that in their strategies. Have you seen them doing that? I'm an active member of Amnesty International, and I think I-I is right in placing that organisation at Green.

Peter

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"All nations should be like Amsterdam" -- Ken Wilber

kessels:

Why would anybody want to write a Turquoise kid's book?

Lots of reasons!  For one, it's great to be able to write to multiple levels at once, so that both the kids and the adults get something meaningful out of the experience.  For another, eventually (even by Ken's own logic) kids will be able to move into Turquoise by Preschool.  I want to have some books ready for that happy occasion!  And for another, it's an exercise in being Turquoise yourself.  If you can write a Turquoise story that is understandable by even young people, then you've got a great skill that can translate into other areas of your life.

Also, lots of my preschool students were very interested in Green and Teal type discussions.  Obviously, their experience was of a state, rather than a stage, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with that, and I say that they do indeed get something out of that experience. 

kessels:

By realising that there are developmental hierarchies, and incorporating that in their strategies.

How would that look to an outside observer?  To me it looks like the Union of Concerned Scientists is indeed looking at science at a broader perspective and saying that some science is good and some of it is harmful, and that we need to make judgements about which is which and promote the good stuff whenever we can.  And they promote the idea of looking at the big picture, and specifically work on coming up with solutions that are effective in both an internal and the external way for both societies as well as individuals.  They may not be using the Ken's AQAL terminology specifically, but it looks to me like they are using a general Turquoise methods.

Ultimately, I'm hoping for the Holon's editors to clarify what their specific criteria are for categorizing media. 

Peace, Love, and Bicycles,
Turtle

Ahhhh....But you DO want to write a turquoise children's book.  2nd tier is the beginning of being able to look at and analyze 1st tier.  We don't want to keep propagating the current versions of red, amber, and green, do we? NOOOOOOOO!

The trick of a turquoise book would be to lay down "new" red and amber rules for children to be immersed in and take as "real".  And to have a way to question the new "healthier" amber rules to move into a healthy orange.  And then to develop into a healthy plurality (green) that will not seek to destroy heiarchy...  And on into teal...

It's not an easy task, as Ken Wilber seems intent at not extrapolating such "theoretical" what if's, but staying the course of using past research to back up his propositions.  Extrapolating a new "healthy" rainbow would run the danger of being clumped with the new agey thingy's.

I believe a truly 2nd tier childrens book will create a new culture from which the next generation will grow up in.  They will thus render much of the current observed research obsolete, because they will exhibit behavior that does not stem from the current culture.  That is the "real" work that we need to do, folks.  Make a new society from the ground up.  And the children is where we start.  Ever heard of those children's fundamental Christian camps???

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myspace.com/zentaimusic

Ahhh yes . . . the key is cultural evolution. We can not change the structures of the stages but in fact are always already changing the content of those structures (or however we want to word that -and then LR would be the society those structures evolve in).

Ats, you might also be interested in this post

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"With whom or with what are you in communion at this moment?"
. . ."I?" he replied, almost mechanically. "Why not with anyone or anything."
"You must be a marvel . . . if you are able to continue in that state for long."
-Constantin Stanislavsky

randomturtle:

kessels:

Why would anybody want to write a Turquoise kid's book?

For another, eventually (even by Ken's own logic) kids will be able to move into Turquoise by Preschool.  I want to have some books ready for that happy occasion! 

Where has Ken said this?  I think this is probably not true.  I don't think the brain development of pre-schoolers supports turquoise-level thinking.  I've heard Ken talk about this somewhere.  In the teen years, the brain begins rapidly changing, and I think it's only after these changes that something like 2nd-tier can emerge.  I wish I had more sources, but a quick Google produced at least this:

http://www.loni.ucla.edu/~thompson/MEDIA/ct.html

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=brain+develop+lobes+teenage+years

Anyone else have knowledge of this?  What leads you to believe that pre-schoolers will be able to move into Turquoise?  Just the fact that the evolution of consciousness seems to be rapidly accelerating, and thus you are extrapolating?  Or something specific Ken has said?  I'm really curious.

Interesting stuff.

Aeryck

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Seeking the Unseekable

can I be a Turquoise Turtle?
Well, if you mate with a Qute Porpoise then maybe your baby can be a Turquoise

Aeryck, the Turquoise by Preschool is, as someone else mentioned in another thread, based on something that Ken sort of offhandedly comments on as a way to demonstrate the fact that society as a whole develops, as well as individuals.  So, yeah, the idea is that (if we survive our own technological destruction) in the future kids will be born into a social environment (LL and LR) that helps them move through first tier perspectives rapidly. 

I've seen kids who, for all intents and purposes, seem to be well into the Blue stage at 4 or 5.  These are the kids who have at least some Green, if not Teal and Turquoise, parents and teachers.  The kids are capable of seeing one or two other perspectives other than their own, and are willing to follow and even create (with a touch of Orange/Amber?) rules for the health of their group.

It may be that the brain development studies are seeing the effect of social/environmental causes, rather than the other way around.  In other words, maybe the brain is like a goldfish: growing to fit into the space it has available to it.  So if there is a Turqouise space around a young brain, it will happily grow (develop) into that space.  If the space is Red, on the other hand, then it will only grow to fit into a Red space.

This may be why we tend to see a lot of new brain growth now in people's late teens and 20's because they are in college, which is an atmosphere where there is a lot of Green and some Teal stuff going on, and the young brains get to grow into that new intellectual space.  Maybe if we can bring that form (though not necessarily the subjects) of thinking and teaching into younger grades, we'll see kids develop their brains even earlier!  Imagine what second grade would be like if kids were given the assignment to design their own classroom, using math, science, art, and social skills to create a space that suits their needs and passions, giving them an inspiring reason to learn about all sorts of complex ideas about themselves, others, and their universe?  This is how adults learn best - by activiely participating and solving problems in their lives - but we don't tend to undrestand that kids will learn best when they are also actively participating and solving problems in their own lives.

Bicycle!
-Turtle

a thought or two from my perspective/experience on 'does the brain grow into the space it has available to it'...and 'can even a very young child take on   'other' role-perspective.  

first will mention reading a bit - notion, (a blurp somewhere)  the idea, that not all souls , when given same growth-environment opportunity will evolve in a carbon-like (same)  fashion. which makes sense in my view. depends, eh? upon the 'age' of the soul? upon  'ancestoral geneology?' i noticed even twin children  -when not identical-  may be quite different.

"is the fish happy?" - asked one forlorn looking 4 year old twin boy, as he circled the table while  peering into ...  'just cut today, on our  first fishing trip these cute fishies , what are they doing all fried-up  on the plates?'

had to come up with song and a dance about 'the fish knows it will be eaten and they don't mind'  speel. still he didn't want to touch it.

at 21..."T and i cut a fish this big!" - "where is it?" -- "we let it go" , said he with a smile. those from the store are ok to eat tho

"i deaded the ladybug she was my friend!" cries one 3 year old  after playing with her for several days.

 

Turtle,

Ah, you used one of my favorite discussion strategies!  Taking someone's argument and reversing cause and effect.  I love it!  Interesting way to look at it.  I completely agree that we see Blue/Amber in healthy 4 or 5 year olds.  In fact, I think if it's not there by then, something has gone awry.  I won't argue further on the capacities of the human brain to reach a certain developmental level by certain ages, simply because I haven't studied it enough.  My gut says that you can only reduce that amount of time so much, but I'm not clear what the numbers would be on the extreme end.

Aeryck

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Seeking the Unseekable

Not sure where I heard it, might have been in the Multiplex somewhere, or likely a link in the Plex to some other site (might have been the Alan Watts google vid from the Crusade Against Religion thread) , but.....

The human brain is not fully developed until early twenties (on average?).  Sorry for lack of details, but until the frontal lobes (?) are done, the amygdala is largely in control and prone to impulsiveness (explains wrecklessness of teens).  It seems to me that 2nd tier cannot be fully grounded until this kind of UR development is substantially complete.  However, it is my belief that we develop not so linearly as indicated by the various developmental models.  One might develop through all the stages but not fully transcend them before moving to the next level.  So a 4-5 year old can be in magenta, red, amber, even orange (my 5 yo daughter is intensely productive) and green (she's also very compassionate, in a trans-ethno/species-centric kinda way).  IMO cultural development can get people to touch higher stages sooner, but cannot necessarily move completely through them all at once.

So, I say, write the turquoise kids book, and fill it with the content of all those lower altitudes, and let the kids sort it out for themselves.

Keith

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Peace. It does not mean to be in a place where there is no noise, trouble or hard work. It means to be in the midst of those things and still be calm in your heart. -unknown

Keith, the latest neuroscience studies indicate that the brain never stops developing.  They used to think it did in adolesence.  Then they said that humans were still developing into their twenties, as we both mentioned.  And now they are finding out that it continues to develop as long as people "exercise their ideas" so to speak.  Pretty cool brains we have, huh?

And, as I suggested before, it may be that our physical brain development (biological growth) is the effect, while the environement is the cause.  So you may not have highly developed frontal and prefrontal lobes until you are in an environment (socially and nutritionally) where they have what they need to grow. 

Though, it's also quite likely that both environment and biology codevelop eachother as both cause and effect at the same time!  (Ouch! Just thinking about this makes my brain have growing pains :-)

Bicycle!
-Turtle

seeing how not exactly booming right along this thread topic is , i'll pipe-in with a thought or wotever.

first, the above mentioned 'i deaded my friend' lil' grrl, on her 5th birthday party, as soon as she heard the cry, "she ran up to her crying to high heaven friend , because her baloon broke ,  and said "here you can have my baloon"  (good 'nuf quote) ...she's psychic too, but that's another story.

"i was so proud of her" - mommy said.an older girl in same class ... a she,  who ,  "s  was afraid of at the begining of school year , because she was abroupt" acc. to daughter ... bec. "she runs around and touches everyone's snacks!" which became a nun-issue  once the 'abroupt' child and S played in the park together, because mommy made sure of it, while she and child's granpa chatted ..."her granpa really loves her , his daughter, a single mom and a nurse needs him to baby sit her every day practically"

i recall wilber mentions  somwhere -  "trailing clouds of glory" - ... i take this  to mean - of soul's progression, of growing its  'potententiality' ...of gifts which one 'earned' along the soul's journey ,  which can't be lost  -  no?

 i mean, how else can one explain the geniuses among us?  those 'mensa' - gifted children, who are much much more 'advanced' than their biological parents? 

 

 

 

makes me wonder if the development of formal operational (abstract) is not "set" to happen in the preens.  To develop into orange, one must develop formal operational capacities, which are linked to brain development which occurs about when they enter middle school.  To enter turquoise, they must be trans-rational, capable of seeing logic itself and AQAL as tools.  If they accomplish that by pre school, we won't need physical bodies any more!  :)

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myspace.com/zentaimusic

hi,
i get the idea on the Whole View ...
that when you are getting that one ...
it may occur to you that you are getting very alone in your social network ...

holding on to your integral naked governance esteem ...
may welcome you on the turquoise, teal, level revelating life.

then ... it starts all over again and some people will signal coral to you as the next level ... whatever it means ... because it is the second tone of the new octave ...

;-)
s'ace - human emergency votee

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"Through the 28::7 T-T cosmogenesis of time, merge your mind into the ever-evolving higher conciousness of time!

If there were not time, there would be no mind to become." - VV-Rinri-II