i don't mean to go off topic, but believe this is where we post about the robb smith / integral leadership review interview

it's such an important point what keith said and robb agreed that we don't have to read ALL those many many many books because ken has read them for us

what an enormous gift he has given us .. his capacity to acquire so much information and make sense of it and present to us the way he does

thank you thank you thank you ken !

 

i second that, fairyfaye. it looks to me that robb smith's becoming ceo was an important step in the right direction, and that direction, i would hope, is towards ken's integral vision--what he said he was brought back to life for.

---

Hi FairyFaye,

 well, it was me who went a little offtopic with this money stuff, sorry,
 however, I totally agree with you, reading more and more about Robb's actions,
 reading his blog and based on opinions about him by II collegaues.

  I really liked that he involves NGO's as well, and make wider visibility
  as well as other limits of II, hope he opens new avenues.

  From outside, it seems he is the right guy very expectant, he has distilled concept,
  and he has no doubts about the way of transition.

  so, I keep my fingers acrossed...

Zoltan

---

Zoltan

fairyfaye:

it's such an important point what keith said and robb agreed that we don't have to read ALL those many many many books because ken has read them for us

what an enormous gift he has given us .. his capacity to acquire so much information and make sense of it and present to us the way he does

 Well, I basically agree, but just in a certain extent:

 Ken has an enormous gift to summarize and integral books,
 but Ken can not read technically all of the important books (especially those /french or hungarian/ ones which has not been transleted to English yet, e.g. Mero Laszlo, Jacques Rancière ).

 Also Ken has his special and carefull way (I guess) of selecting books matching with his
 daimon and beleif, so he might never read Worldwatch or Deep Ecology books.

  Lastly you might discover other values or discover that Ken was wrong or missed something
  at a book, and eventually you might help Integral work with that.

  A quite well educated fellow read Brief History of Everything, couple years ago,
  and he admitted the book is the best  book in the field, 
  but he also pointed out three minor mistakes concerning to other books, 
  and I guess II and Ken was gratefull! 

   I believe that there is sudden agression in "Ken has read them for us, it is like: Ken reads every book and tell us the meaning", that is not right, there are couple symbolic books which are dedicated to have personal messages, or I would never miss Ervin Laszlo books.
    
   “Ervin Laszlo has, probably more than any person alive, intricately spelled out a staggering but often neglected fact: we live in a hopelessly interconnected universe, with each and every single thing connected in almost miraculous ways to each and every other,” says Ken Wilber

  So there are a lot of books which Ken can read them for us and summarize, but books or information which are closely remain toour daimen or our beleif could not read and summarized by Ken. No way.

  What I really like about Ken is that he is emphasizing that we should evaulate the teachers,
  and we should evaulate the pandits as well, including him. Every teacher pandit has blindspots and "lightpost" including Ken.

   I think teacher as a phenomenon has been developing:

    1, red:  teacher is that guy who tells us who do we have to kill tomorrow
    2, blue :  teacher was guru, and everybody what a guru says was right
    3, orange: teachers are those who know what I need to achieve my goal (inpersonal)
    4, green: teacher is more between somebody who is a close friend a brother or a mentor

 I still beleive Ken was wrong pointing harbours and trains as interobjective level of Business,
 it does not affect his brilliance and his work being done, but he was wrong on that.

      I went again offtopic, sorry. :) let's move this discussion to Moving Present - Jelenkor, and let it remain for Integral Leadership Review interviews Robb Smith :)
  
      I imagine Robb is reading this forum saying: I am just slightly mentioned here. :)

---

Zoltan

another of the many things i love about this interview is how robb recognizes that it is hard to offend an integral .. and how he uses this in his selection process (seeing if he can easily offend the applicant)

u just have to think about being offended to feel the painful contraction .. vs the freedom and expansion of not being easily offended

Hello Fairyfaye,

I do not get this one, it sounds quite weird...
integral person could be sensitive or less sensitive, no?
in what terms is it integral?

I have the "oversimplyfing the meaning" feeling with this practice :)
How is it in life?

Zoltan

---

Zoltan

"who" exactly is a person who is taking things too personally .. or taking themselves too seriously ??

 

  I got the message, thanks...

---

Zoltan

yes it's such a great way to weed out the uptight .. of course i'm generalizing but am glad u got my point

 

and well remember the difference between green and turquoise .. or between first and second tier

is that green doesn't acknowledge hierarchy .. uptight people are equal to more relaxed people .. and should be just as desirable to a ceo ?

 

 

hi zoltan,

fairyfaye was right: we were off thread, so let's try to reconnect with the thread. afterall, you were talking about money and that's definitely relevant to i-i's search for a ceo that led to robb's hiring. my impression was that i-i had some serious financial difficulties. since i've mentioned john mackey and whole foods to you, why don't we do a comparison. maybe i-i could learn something from the more financially successful whole foods enterprise.

i-i, of course, has a much more ambitious vision. it aims to be a 2nd tier, integral organization, whereas whole foods only expects its leadership to be 2nd tier (and not necessarily integral, as well as i can tell). if you listen to the latest ISC concall on ch.6 of 'integral spirituality', you can hear what KW has to say about this. here it's important to distinguish between cognitive and self development. one can be 2nd tier, but not integrally 2nd tier, i.e. 2nd tier cognitively but not with regard to the self-related lines such as values and morals. according to KW, this is precisely the problem i-i is having. something like 85% of its leaders are turquoise/green, i.e. cognitively turquoise but otherwise green. this is an enormous problem because most of us who are seriously interested in what KW and i-i are doing are almost always embedded in a green post/modern culture. i can say with complete confidence that that includes you, for example, even though we've barely met. and it's all quadrants, so if our LL is green, then, almost inevitably, our self-related lines are going to be at green, no matter how high we climb cognitively. incidentally, the standard example for the relative independence of the cognitive line is karl rove, who is reputed to be more or less at a turquoise altitude, but otherwise amber, the culture he happens to be embedded in.

so why not just go with turquoise/green? it would certainly be alot easier than attempting to move up to turquoise/turquoise, and many organization are already pursuing that easier path, and that will certainly resonate with all those people out there embedded in that green culture, and be much more profitable, at least financially.

that seems to me to be the enormous challenge that steve robb and i-i face. if they are to be true to KW's integral vision, then they need to create an integral culture within i-i, an awesome task in itself, while depending financially on a largely green culture, out of which an integral culture can develop only later on. money will definitely be a problem.

zoltan:

I believe that the mission of money is over around green, I might be wrong.

this is what green believes, and it leads to a great deal of hypocrisy, because, of course, they need money just as much as anyone else. from an integral perspective, it makes much more sense to add to the functionality of the monetary system rather than to try replacing it.

i'm off now to look for another message of yours about trains and such things,

ralph

p.s. couldn't find it. the point is that trains are made by finite beings, namely human beings. such objects are called artefacts in the language of aqal, in contrast to sentient beings, who are called holons and, unlike artefacts, develop from moment to moment. artefacts make up the infrastructure, i would guess, of the LR of holons.

---

i understand what keith was saying about the opportunities for self-awareness that raising kids provides

but a child bearing and birthing thought flashed thru my mind anyways .. that ken's collective works has more gestations and births than any we've ever had

 

Hi FairyFaye and Ralph,

  I did not know about the money problems of II, wishing that Robb will able
  to cope with that. Among his major concerns are transparency and feedback
  seems also essentials, I hope Robb will able to deal with them as well!

  Thanks Ralph for pointing out lack of the multiple lines of development view
  at my previous writing, it makes sense.

  Regarding to my green-money comment, I was not specific enough:
  I did not mean at individual level at all! I and vast majority of the people
  are need money and concerned about money, and I spend lot of my time
  on practical money issues. (like making :) )

  I also did not want to specifically address the current monetary system issue.
  Most probably you are right, the solution is to integrate an explicit planetary
  and rational and sustainable principles at our monetary system Top-Down. 
  (Fortunately many economist are concerned and working on this. 
  Unfortunatly it goes slow, and by now it is only imaginable at World-scale.
  I hope it will be done right on time, before US individual debts and foreclosures 
  and intergovermentalnational debt reaches a certain level.)  

   I meant the money as medium in exchange role in the "green" or 2nd tier future,
   let's say at 2024.

   Anyways your thoughts were inspirational. What did you mean by my thought on "trains?".

PS: I will be a little less here due to my work, so I have sent both of you a personal message,
      and looking forward your answer, and see you soon.
   
 

---

Zoltan

hey zoltan!

i got your email. i've really enjoyed corresponding with you--hope you can get back with us sometime in the future.

why 2024? is there something special about that year? besides you're being an old man, and fairyfaye and i pushing up pansies. you don't have to answer: i know you've got work to do.

'trains' touch on a more difficult aspect of aqal. you almost have to love philosophy to get into this.

take care,

ralph

---

Hey Guys,

  no there is nothing special about 2024, just this date came to my mind.
  
  Many people concerned about 2024 as a sort of crisis date,
  but I am quite carefull with these prophecis and conspiration-theories. 
  (2000 apocallypse has been postoned to 2024, and than 2024, and now 2024.)

  However, if the US tendecy for goods-equity imbalance stays (between the amount of money in circulation and the amount of economic goods that are represented by the economy) and also the credit-run goes up then there is an unstable situation that may lead to hyperinflation and crisis all over the Globe by ~2020, or who know there are two many factors in this game!

  But hopefully socially responsible investors and businessmans, and other planetary concerned people precede any potential of any criss, and maybe our mindset are ready to take that. 
  I guess we have to work on both :)

  It would be interesting to hear Robb's view on this.

  I have just begun to read Ken's draft on Integral Spirituality and realized that
  many times I missed one or two type when I thought I am Integral. So need to learn,
  and need to describe the 0-E sys. as well.

take care...

---

Zoltan