Dear David:  I knew for sure that you were making just the point that you said you were.   I swear I never read that version, Never.  I wonder if there was editing. I read a paperback and would have paid close attention to something like that. Either that or I blocked it out and Icannot see myself doing that.  Rather re-editing? I would have never questioned you.  In fact when the Wyatt Earpy thing came out, I ws so totally with Ken and nailing someone like that with about six words is the most powerful way to get something across and never have to mention it again.  As the other side keeps throwing it back at you.  And since Ken seems accd. to everyone to have such a good disposition,  I was glad to see what he did.   I think my copy of Grace and Grit is at my daughter's house in Ormond.   I have given a couple of copies away.

I am flabbergasted that  I would get that wrong.  At any rate, I would never try to

disagree with you as I respect you very much.  ON the other hand, I do need to check that out.  It still does not ring true tho either one of them could have gone over the edge at that time.  I still believe that.  It was not like it was power for power's sake but a huge breakdown of that stressful time.  And we do love them and hate them.  At least that has been my experience with husband and children and everyone I know unless their life is stress free or they are dead in the head.   I personally have never been pushed quite that far.   I know that I am capable of most anything.  And I was taught as a child to never use that word or to call someone a Liar.  We had to say that they told a story which is really what they are doing.      I certainly do not want to.  And I was so taken back that the honesty was out there with what I thought he said.   Again, neither of us wo uld want to try and embellish that story. I knew what you meant.   Thanks for your response.   Love Pattye

Hi Pattye

Yes, I know:   its pretty shocking to read that, isn't it? Its been discussed a few times on this forum in the 3 years I've been here, and people mostly respond in the same way.

I don't blame you for wanting to check:  just to confirm that the edition of Grace and Grit I quoted from was the 1991 edition, printed over here by Newleaf on behalf of Shambala, Ken's American publisher. Page 154 in this edition.

Sure - Treya was struggling with cancer and Ken was overwrought - it would be stupid and unfeeling to make judgements.  I just want to restate that my purpose in referring to this painful incident was to underline my point that noone, but noone, ever evolves beyond human suffering in this life.  There's no escape even for the enlightened.

Good wishes to you

~ D

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'This is all the time you'll ever have'.
~ Dr Hannibal Lecter

I read Grace and Grit long ago -late 90's I think- but don't actually recal the fight scene. If I did read it , it prob. wouldn't have made made  a great impression . . . people do it all the time. The part that left impression on me was the scene in a German pub , where he dances with guys in circle  and cries his guts out. I recall him say,  that was the first time he felt safe.

It wasn't a fight, Helen.   Ken put that in his book for a purpose.   You missed his point, bigtime.

---

'This is all the time you'll ever have'.
~ Dr Hannibal Lecter

 Helene:   It is OK     I happen to have the passage you speak of etched on my heart.

I think that was after he had turned down the opportunity to have a little erotic fun in his life and was told by Treya later that he should have gone for it.

David:   Yes your point is so important to me and must be for all of us.  We would be so boring without all the dimensions.  Again, I appreciated that you were saying that.  And Helene and I were deeply touched with a guy dancing with other men, so joyfully ( and sexy, I may add) esp since he had turned down the other, perhaps to be loyal to Treya .   Personally,  I am not "re-inventing the wheel".  I am just getting a chance to express these things that have deep meaning for me.  In that sense, I  am very happy that you are still here to clue us in.   Actually, I have been a member for a very long time, when In Naked started and I actually got a headache because I could not read the white on black.    Imentioned this and they said it was the best kind of wy to do that.   I would struggle at times and paid my dues all those years,.  And some of it was way far out for my old bones.  I am now listed as having joined last year or something like that.  It has improved and I have had cataracts removed so it is fine. 

I loved the walking story you told, David.  That big old black buzzard and the dog and you and your wife.   Carol Jung would have loved that!!!!!!!  And now we are evolved to a point that we can "get it" without too much digging.  Still he gives us a richness that is like a little icing on todays cake.  Transcend and Include.  And I love you David and Helene for your contributions.  I am going to leave you with

MAHARISHI PHUCKNUCKEL'S GUIDE TO ZEN  (only a few- more later)

l.Do not walk behind me, for I may not lead. Do not walk ahead of me, for I may not

follow. Do notwalk beside me either, just fuck off andleave me alone.

2. Never forget you are unique, like everyone else.

3. Before you judge someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you judge them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes.

Later Pattye

David,  I thought of a joke for Integral Relationships  or Rel that are not Int. Jean Houston told this at a seminar.

This woman went to the travel agency and ask for a good route to north west afghanistan - not the city/town but miles away in the north west area not that near afghanistan.  Directions were that primitive.  The travel lady said  "you do not want to go there".  "we would have to fly you over and that would be your last comfort. You would get on a two seater plane in a remote area . the plane needs lots of work-is old and run down.  The plane would flly you to a more remote place about 100 miles and hopefully you would be able to land.  From there you would ride a cart pulled by a horse another 50 miles and the horse and cart are also in need of a re-haul. Thenyou would walk or rather hike the mts for about two hours before you reached your destination. And then you would ride a donkey another hour.  You do not want to go!!!!  The woman said she did not care she wanted to go.  And she did and all the steps above were followed with fear and tripidation.  When she arrived, she saw a group of people- about 50 and twenty of them were waiting in line to get thru a hole in the side of the mt that was not very large.  There was a holy man- a guru inside and people were waiting to see him.  She was told when she almost arrived at the front of the line that she could only say three words to the holy man.

the enlightened one.  Finally she went in and got down on her knees in front of the

enlightened one who was sitting cross legged with a lit candle near him as the only light.   She looked into his eyes and said.   

 

"Harry, Come Home"

I love the jokes, Pattye!!

I'm going to share them with all my friends.  Thank you!

My buzzard story - part of it was that for me, in my part of England, to see a buzzard fly by would be like you seeing a unicorn sunning itself in your garden.  The pure wonder of it instantly transported me into a peak state, in which all was both included and transcended.  The many the one, the one the many...  Happens to me a lot, but each time its the first time.

I don't know when this thread is finally going to conclude but, reflecting on it, I'm put in mind of a statement by the American psychologist Harry Stack Sullivan:

'Love begins when a person feels another person's needs to be as important as his own'.

That rings true to me.  Love begins when someone begins to transcend their own ego and to care about others.   From there, it can widen and widen to include not just all people but all beings and all things.

The many posts on this thread have woven in and out of the subject of romantic relationships and inter-subjectivity as if they are the same.  They aren't:  we can 'relate' to another without loving them, without 'feeling that their needs are as important as our own', can't we?

And we can love without inter-subjectivity:  we can love people we have never met, or people who don't love us back, or things which don't even know of our existence.

And yet:  can there be real inter-subjectivity, which is a special kind of relationship, it seems, one of shared being - can there be real inter-subjectivity without the 'beginnings' of love?   I think not.  I think that to share being is to transcend our egotism and to begin to evolve through a widening of compassion.   Which is what integral is all about:  not knowing a lot of theory, not belonging to a special group.  Its about the widening of compassion.

~ D

 

 

 

 

---

'This is all the time you'll ever have'.
~ Dr Hannibal Lecter

Hey Pat and David

I soo realized I read Grace and Grit in the very early 90's , instead of 'late 90' as indicated in my previous scrible.  How time flies! the first printing of GG made quite the impression on me. I recall with green crayon making notes on the blank page of book.... I'm pretty sure the library has that copy but I don't want to read it again.....

AND, upon reflection I do recal in Tryeas' journal-entry the day they  'had it out on the beach'. Ken was prob. pissed she wanted to have hands-on energy treatments. Sooo retarded, such a notion, eh?

Pat I do recall Ken's boordelo night and a 50$ for a whore and a bottle of champagne - oh,  and a  hole in the floor purple light strip show... that's when Treya said  - 'why should you go without , you  should have gone for it'. He said 'darn it', or something...Justifying prostitusion, "the oldest profession"   have been around since the begining of time' ...Therefore ? 'let us keep the oldest profesion on this planet going because it is the oldest profesion after all ...  why mess with it now?'

David , you said  I missed it bigtime? umm... maybe not    

Helene:  Most of the time,  I really do  believe everyone is right.   Ken said "Rats"..

I am not even sure now and I am going to take a look at the book when I can.  I do not remember the word "whore" ever being  used.  And the way I look at it, I felt that perhaps he would not participate in the erotic by paying for a slightlly cheapened version of what that can be .  and ended up dancing with the men in the bar and felt safe for the first time.  He would never forget that.  The other would have been a momentary  look-see with little erotic about it before it was over.  There is a quote and I forget now who said it.  I think it might be a Sufi quote.

We are what we see.  "When a Holy Person is in the sight of a thief,  the thief cannot see her.  All he can see are her pockets/purse.

I think I just murdered that quote but you get the point.

Give yourself a hug Helene.   Much Love Pattye.

Dear David:  Sounds like a fine way to end to me.   Yes,  where in the world did that Buzzard come from?    There was a thread started about synchronicity and I said I would come back and write one of my stories.  The thread was about the Secret.  Now I cannot find it.   I know I will.   If you run upon it, let me know.  I will do the same.   Once again, I was right there as you finished.   I appreciate your talent and your life lived.  Someday, I will try and read the whole thread.  I have spent so much of my life thinking, living, being lost in, being loved, betrayed, humiliated, estatic that I did not want to join in that much so never made an attempt .  As my mother got much older, she said one day.  "I don't want to know anybody else."  I am comfortable with that now when I feel that way and I am still wanting to be there for others and comfortable with that.   I don't know all the names of the flowers either and I still love them.

And your wife spotted your Buzzard.   That whole picture is so rich.  If that big black Buzzard had not shown up the picture would have been so incomplete.  It was astounding.   It had to be a big black Buzzard.  Where in the world did he/she come from?  That question puts me in the We space with you.   I can feel it.  Pattye

Helen & Pattye

Rather than try to remember what did or didn't happen in Grace and Grit, why not get hold of the book, check it out and then let's resume that conversation, if you want!    Its not like proving the existence of God!   There's an actual physical book which most members here have read and most may have copies.

Having said that, it IS curious how selective memory can be.  Pattye, Ken DID have an interlude with a prostitute in Germany.  Its in the book.   Helen, Ken and Treya DIDN'T fight.  Ken hit Treya and she screamed for him to stop, but he wouldn't.  That's not a fight and no, it doesn't happen all the time that men beat their sick wives.  It was an extraordinary and troublesome thing, which Ken was honest enough to record.  That's the point you missed, since you seem to  think it was some kind of domestic spat.  Ken dancing with men?  I don't see the relevance here.  If its relevant, you need to clarify.   OK - end of my participation in reminiscences of Grace and Grit.  That might be a good subject for another thread....

~ D

 

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'This is all the time you'll ever have'.
~ Dr Hannibal Lecter

David:   "It is not like proving the existance of  God."   That felt very patronizing.

It was Folk Dancing   German Folk Dancing, not on a stage but at a bar where a group of men got up and spontaneously ask a young man who seemed alone to join

them. They were in a line or a circle, I assume, but maybe you are right thinking they were dancing how?   Cheek to cheek?  It was the end of  a nite of events on a difficult and confusing night and the dancing was part of the whole picture.   I would say that for me it was a very precious story, not the same as yours but coming from  a place that touched me. Your suggestion to get some "proof" in so many words and end this conversation

made me feel I had no choice to respond.   I do and I am. And we don't want to go on with this nonsense unless I want to.start a thread.  "There is an actual physical book which most members here have read and most may have copies." "An actual physical book?   Dam, I did not know that. Nonsense is my word that I felt you felt about this subject.  "It is curious how selective memory can be"    If I did get this so wrong, it is not necessary to remind me of that.  I already am considering that and accepting that I may be  having a problem.  Your reminding me just added to more patronizing.     . There is a possibility that there is something that you are not getting.   The We" space just went brown for me.  That is interesting also..  Very grounded.  And so now we will end on that note and I will not have to go into silent mode and not like you at all.   Or think, God what a prick!

We can go back to being nice and civil .  This kind of stuff had to come out. Helene and I just happened to be here.  That is OK.   I will take responsibility  for being the rabbit but I will not be responsible for the avalanche.   I do not have a group behind me but I have been here before.  I have learned to handle it.  My mind will just clear up like a computer piece being deleted.  That is my ending. No more thoughts. That is unless you want to pursue this.   If you do, you can start another thread.

the We space just went brown?...hmmm...upon reflection I notice that  *we are we, we are the infinite*

As for 'get Grace and Grit out and get it right , I can say -  'no can do, my GG copy got mailed to SriLanka back in 02? to a forum-friend.

As for the word "whore?" David - wanta compare notes on the difference of:  "street walker" / "truck rest/stop sex providers" / "lap dancers - slash strippers" / "porn queens" /  "Escort Service" , and as if I could forget for very long those exlucive resort places -"the most beautiful spots on earth"  I heard about on TV , who cater to men with  a livin' in whores. (note capital letters , those are high paying whores for johns who can fork over $$$$$) I guess those must be adveritzed in business and  men magazines - I guess.

hmmm.....I don't , but will add one thing tho...last night watched a bit on TV about computer predators and heard "as young as seven year old girls on chat lines display their pictures wearing thong."  Nice lovelies, eh? Sick! Sick! Sick! Sick! Sick! Sick! Sick!

See my avatar foto? I know she would kill me if she knew I did this - my angelic looking , dimplled-cheek, slender six footer daughter , would vaporize  her daughter's   predator, possibly before her husband  even. She worked one summer as a motel made , whose add in book boasts "minutes from city" , hence, City View - name .She saw the lunch hour trafic. She saw on the parking lot $$$ change hands ...totto-decorated pimping hustlers dudes paying cash...She saw dope needles....She was sickened by the whole frigin' show. "I don't want to get sick I feel like puking" . Can't see why single guys had to rush and get  laid during lunch hours. On the other hand , I could understand  why  married men might wanto to do it...the rush n' fuk deal. 

 

Hi, folks,

 Thanks for the beautiful explorations. I have a response that may add a little new juice to the conversation. I’ll try to keep it brief, but it’s a whole model, so it will take some words. I hope this is okay. This is my first posting, so rein me in as necessary:

There are a few things going on that are involved in this discussion, each one is worthy of a conversation in itself, and they are ALL involved SIMULTANEOUSLY in the subject of relationships, which makes it all very complex:

1. “General” relationships (acquaintance, friends), vs. “Intimate/Love” relationships.
            2. Levels of Depth in relationship: Saying hi to the postman to conversations about deep personal pain to lovemaking.
            3.A very important thread: How we relate to people of different Levels of development.

I would like to approach Levels of Depth here by bringing in the work of Eric Berne, M.D., and his powerful work Games People Play (Ballantine Books, 1964). He is the founder of what is called Transactional Analysis (TA) (A Right Side approach, I think), who breaks down social transactions into Procedures, Rituals, Pastimes,  Games, and Intimate Relationships which seem to mirror the levels of depth so important to the AQAL view. (Quotes are from Berne, the interpretations into Integral Relationship and Levels are mine).

“A PROCEDURE is a series of simple complementary Adult transactions directed towards the manipulation of reality.” Ie. Looking for food, hunting, or running away. Also, moving with people through public places. This seems to be at what we are calling a BEIGE level of awareness. It is about physically functioning.
            This is how we relate to STRANGERS.

            “A RITUAL is a stereotyped series of simple, complementary transactions programmed by external social forces (culture). An informal ritual, such as social leave-taking, may be subject to considerable local variations in details, although the basic form remains the same.” Berne’s example of this has four procedures, and two parties, and  reads:

1A: “Hi!” (Hello, good morning.)
1B: “Hi!” (Hello, good morning.)
2A: “Warm enough forya?” (How are you?)   
2B: “Sure is. Looks like rain, though.” (Fine. How are you?)
3A: “Well, take cara yourself.” (Okay.)
3B: “I’ll be seeing you.”
4A: “So long.”
4B: “So long."

  This is at a PURPLE level of depth, giving each person a sense of Belonging, and Structuring Time. Rituals continue into Red and Blue societies in formal ways, as well. Rituals at the Red level (fertility rites, perhaps), and at the Blue level (Catholic Mass, and Legal Proceedings) also confirm Role and Position relieve guilt and seek deeper rewards.
    This is how we relate to AQUAINTANCES (and AUTHORITIES at Red).

             “PASTIMES occur in social and temporal matrices of varying degrees of complexity, and hence vary in complexity… (Pastimes) may be defined as a series of semi-ritualistic, simple, complementary transactions arranged around a single field of material, whose primary object is to structure an interval of time… Pastimes are typically played at parties… Pastimes may take the form described as ‘chit-chat’ or they may become more serious… In one corner of the room a few people are playing ‘PTA’, another corner is the forum for ‘Psychiatry,’…”  Right here we are doing the pastime “Integral Discussion.”
    Pastimes confirm Role and Stabilize Position. This is the RED level of depth.
    This is how we relate to FRIENDS.

            “A GAME is an ongoing series of complementary ulterior transactions progressing to a well-defined, predictable outcome. Descriptively it is a recurring set of transactions, often repetitious, superficially plausible, with a concealed motivation; or, more colloquially, a series of moves with a snare, or ‘gimmick.’ Games are clearly differentiated from procedures, rituals, and pastimes by two chief characteristics: (1) their ulterior quality and (2) the payoff. Procedures may be successful, rituals effective, and pastimes profitable, but all of them are by definition candid; they may involve contest, but not conflict, and the ending may be sensational, but it is not dramatic. Every game, on the other hand, is basically dishonest, and the outcome has a dramatic, as distinct from merely exciting, quality.”
    An example of one of Berne’s games is “If It Weren’t For You” (IIWFY) Berne again:

            “Mrs. White complained that her husband severely restricted her social activities, so that she had never leaned to dance. … (When eventually) she signed up for dancing classes, she discovered to her despair that she had a morbid fear of dance floors and had to abandon this project. This unfortunate adventure… laid bare some important aspects of the structure of her marriage… As it turned out, contrary to her complaints, her husband was performing a very real service for her by forbidding her to do something she was deeply afraid of, and by preventing her, in fact, from even becoming aware of her fears. This was one reason her (inner) Child had shrewdly chosen such a husband.”
            Examples of other games described by Berne are “Now I’ve Got You, You Son-Of-A-Bitch,” “Kick Me,” and “Alcoholic.”
            I believe that, at the BLUE level, individualism has been established in many ways, but we are still not ready to let go of Red need for belonging and step into the frightening unknown of true intimacy. Games give us a way of relating that appears individualistic, but keeps us in a more static social matrix. Games are Red disguised as Green.

            At the GREEN level, the individual consciousness is developed enough to take part in what we are calling ‘Intimate Relationships’ in this forum. A few more of Berne’s definitions:
            Autonomy. The attainment of autonomy is manifested by the release or recovery of three capacities: awareness, spontaneity, and intimacy.
            Awareness. Awareness means the capacity to see a coffeepot and hear the birds sing in one’s own way, and not the way one was taught… Awareness requires living in the here and now, and not in the elsewhere, the past or the future.
            Spontaneity. Spontaneity means option, the freedom to choose and express one’s feelings from the assortment available. It means liberation… from the compulsion to play games…
            Intimacy. Intimacy means the spontaneous, game free candidness of an aware person, the liberation of the eidetically perceptive, uncorrupted Child in all its naivete living in the here and now.

            So here we are, at the Green level, where, hopefully, we can choose a partner for better reasons than we had before. In the past we would choose partners because:

            Beige: They are part of our tribe and help us survive.
            Purple: They are of correct position in the tribe to (help us survive, and) uphold the social order.
            Red: They are in an appropriate Clan to (help us survive, uphold the social order and) reinforce our place in the tribe.
            Blue: They (help us survive, uphold the social order, reinforce our place in the tribe, and) play our games with us and avoid true intimacy.

I’m going to stop here. I have more thoughts, but I think I’ve gone on quite long enough for a first ever posting. Please give a response to all this, and let me know if this is the right way to go about this. That is, if this is the right way to present something like this.

Thanks!!!

Dmitri

Hi Dmitri - it's fun for me to hear you slice through the burlwood of life with your TA scalpel, translating into integral color language. It's been a long time since I've heard TA so explicitly and cohesively presented, with some detail and examples. I like it. And you translating it reminds me why I am so cautious and humbled about imagining that I spend significant time in 'higher' stages. So much of our lives, obviously socially as here on IN, does happen around these patterns of doing, these procedures, rituals, pastimes, and maybe games. I'm reminded of the deep tenacity of each of these in myself, but especially, most uncomfortably, games.
“A GAME is an ongoing series of complementary ulterior transactions progressing to a well-defined, predictable outcome. Descriptively it is a recurring set of transactions, often repetitious, superficially plausible, with a concealed motivation; or, more colloquially, a series of moves with a snare, or ‘gimmick.’ Games are clearly differentiated from procedures, rituals, and pastimes by two chief characteristics: (1) their ulterior quality and (2) the payoff. Procedures may be successful, rituals effective, and pastimes profitable, but all of them are by definition candid; they may involve contest, but not conflict, and the ending may be sensational, but it is not dramatic. Every game, on the other hand, is basically dishonest, and the outcome has a dramatic, as distinct from merely exciting, quality.”
So. My guess is that there are aspects of all of these in  my  reply and engagement of you, here, now.  And the one I'm wondering about most is game.  I wouldn't be surprised to find that I have an ulterior motive, that my engagement through somewhat articulate thinking could be a gimmick.

If I were momentarily to leave this analytical slice through the here and now, and speak in terms of feelings and needs. I might be able to identify what feelings are moving in me and what needs I'm attempting to meet. Again, would I be fully honest to myself, and would I be fully honest to you and the rest of us. My guess is 'yes' and 'no' and 'maybe'. Others may be able to know their motives and expression of those clearly - at the moment, I find it difficult for me. I think that I do play plenty of games, but when looked at as real attempts to meet a need(s), it doesn't seem to carry such a moral weight that sometimes in my mind has gone along with the words dishonest and game.

"Please give a response to all this, and let me know if this is the right way to go about this. That is, if this is the right way to present something like this."
I do like how you've presented this and I'm ready for some more of it. At another time, I may be able to interact with you and the material in more specific or more theoretical ways. Welcome, Ambo

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Ambo Suno