Quite busy and lazy about reading this whole thread today.  Peeked at it the other day also with no time.  Wanted to comment and not sure if anybody has mentioned that all of this is tetra-arising in this moment.  So, while reincarnation has what I believe a very valid place in the structure of consciousness, that is really just a product of linear progression through the infinite all.  What we experience as karma is in our field now, not something that was in our field in some other life.  The karma that appears as something from a past life, as a result, as I previously indicated, of the necessarily linear nature of consciousness exploration/evolution, is really the structures of thought that we are still clinging to as somehow unresolved.  So if one ascends the ladder, so to speak, or travels through the infinite creation in consciousness to a "place" where their perspective is broad enough, reincarnation will be seen as another illusion that was convenient to help in understanding the developmental stage at the time it was held as a belief.  Beyond that it is transcended and seen as just another structure in consciousness, which perhaps from the infinite perspective of Big Mind is all illusion.  I guess the "point" in the development/exploration/evolution of consciousness at which this belief gets shed is the point at which the witness dissolves so there is no longer any karma to observe, and there is truly "identification" with the infinite, eternal moment of now in which everything tetra-arises.  Phew!

Make any sense?

Peace

Keithi

---

Peace. It does not mean to be in a place where there is no noise, trouble or hard work. It means to be in the midst of those things and still be calm in your heart. -unknown

Hi Keith,

If all of this is tetra-arising in this moment? Where did you get that crazy idea from??

Sure, reincarnation is ultimately an illusion, just like everything else we could possibly talk about, but some like to figure how this big-ass holodeck works, that's all. If you have the time and energy, read the thread, it's great!

Peter

---

"All nations should be like Amsterdam" -- Ken Wilber

Mascha:

- and that Opa could see and hear us if he wanted to, any time. Moreover, Opa would come back down to earth and be with us again if he felt a need do another round -- just don't count on it and don't MAKE HIM!

(Emphasis mine.)

I wanted to throw out to check out this thread (my i.l.p.) from the old IN forum. faireyfaye and I had a conversation I think turned out very interesting only a few weeks ago . .  . (particularly page 2 and 3)

Still trying to catch up . . .

Tim

---

"With whom or with what are you in communion at this moment?"
. . ."I?" he replied, almost mechanically. "Why not with anyone or anything."
"You must be a marvel . . . if you are able to continue in that state for long."
-Constantin Stanislavsky

Mascha:

Dear Kessels, The Tibetan Book of the Dead was a major revelation. I've never confessed this to anyone, but reading it at age 18, I felt that I had been one of the ancient contributors to the texts - and I also knew exactly where the translations fell short (Evans Wentz, English and German); where we (the Lamas who jotted down this stuff over centuries) were exaggerating the universality of the phenomena which appear to souls transiting through the Bardo states, and where we got it right - dead on, in fact -

This may be asking way too much but . . . I would be very interested in that. (Perhpas another thread? See last thread! in my opening post)

And, interesting, I'm pretty certain I scribbed at lest one or a partial Bible by hand waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back in the day . . . . . do you think this might be closer to what you're "remembering?"

like in the opening instructions, where the text exhorts the departing spirit to go into the Clear Light of your original nature straight away! No dawdling with lesser lights, alluring and glamorous though they seem. Go Home, sucker, and Stay There, if you know what's good for you kind of instructions.... And this brings me back to a near-death exp. I had at age 7. Horrible circumstances - best thing that ever happened. No visions, no greeting committee, no forms, just went straight into the Godhead and became That... All all.....

You know, and I've never told anyone this but . . . I had that opportunity once. Yes, and I knew the absolute terror would cease if I accepted . . . . and all the answers and everything . . .

 . . . . but I couldn't do that to my mother . . . I knew it would all be fine, but I just couldn't do it to her, she wouldn't understand . . . .

And so . . . here we are now . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . (stuck posting on a dumb forum!)

---

"With whom or with what are you in communion at this moment?"
. . ."I?" he replied, almost mechanically. "Why not with anyone or anything."
"You must be a marvel . . . if you are able to continue in that state for long."
-Constantin Stanislavsky

tricia:

Honestly I have never read such intelligent interpretations of what can happen at death!  Tinelody I printed your reply and I am still reading it!

I hope your not mistaking Ken for me! (?) Although, if you are . . . ha, well, we do try.

---

"With whom or with what are you in communion at this moment?"
. . ."I?" he replied, almost mechanically. "Why not with anyone or anything."
"You must be a marvel . . . if you are able to continue in that state for long."
-Constantin Stanislavsky

Okay, Lord Jesu Christo! Here’s what I want to post next:

 

The first time I ever heard of such a crazy notion as “reincarnation” I was pretty much somewhere in late conop. I had never heard of such a thing before and the reason I heard of it was because of my born-again fundamentalist brother (and his girlfriend) talking about how weird and scary and going-to-go-to-hell my older sister was because she had converted to (I hope I spell this acceptably) Nicheren ShoShu Buddhism. (This is that cult like “nam yo ho renge kyo” say this and it will fulfill ally our desires Buddhism that swept America with full Boomeritis flowers and love.)

 

What is most important about this is not so much that this was the first time I had ever heard of it, but the way that such a notion was interpreted and pictured in my mind. Basically, it sounded like the most absurd/weird notion I had ever heard of. How could I ever have been “someone else?”

 

What is at stake here is the sense of and identification of “I.”

 

“I” was completely and pretty much nearly 100% embedded in the body, family and culturally constructed personality (and name and origin and so on) and basically only the Frontal Self.

 

This is important, because as I said earlier, such an idea makes absolutely no sense whatsoever to that level of consciousness and Self Recognition. (In fact, I like that term here. . . . it’s all levels of Self Recognition. Also, in a different culture where this was always the norm obviously at least the acceptability would have been a little different-in fact, I'm curious about that.) How could any connection be formed? Why would some “weirdo’s” come up with such an idea and yes, that freaking scary!

 

Later, however, the story became different. My transition into probably mid-formop did not only involve a much better identification and differentiation of body from mind, but much to my great fortune it was also accompanied by a sustained Subtle Level Intuition. “I and My Father are One” was something I just suddenly simply knew . . . and for a long time.

 

This great confidence caused me to, with just that, confidence, reinterpret the ordinary mythic Christian teaching which just simply had to make no sense whatsoever. i.e. with a new understanding and consideration of time, how long this life really was (not long) what are the chances of ever getting it “right,” an understanding of what a more reasonable love and compassion and fairness was –among other things –there was just simply no way that this life, this short, short and confounding and confusing  and pretty equally merciless life could ever fairly determine you eternal fate in Heaven or Hell. If not abysmally unfair, how utterly pointless and design wise, stupid! (What, you um, didn’t anticipate all the difficulties and there r, um, just left us here? Stupid! I wouldn’t do tht to my friends much less my children!)

 

And so then, and because of this Subtle Intuition, where others might have (and did) cast off the whole things, I began to look into the idea of reincarnation.

 

To me it was simple: Oh, purgatory. You can’t get to Heaven until your ready, probably aren’t bad enough for hell so . . . . . let’s just try this all over again and see what we can do.

 

I think I said this on the old thread but I introduced this idea (at 14) to a Catholic prayer groups in the final manner of “So how do you know this isn’t Purgatory now!?” And they really were bowled over. Such a koan had never occurred to them. And they did thank me and, even if later despite their minds (and emotions) they clearly experience relief! (Like Gavin.)

 

And so it was from here that I really started looking into who I was. (Which, if you say it a few times does have several meanings.)

 

Obviously, I will continue with my personal experiences later, but the main point here that I wish to make is this:

 

Having reached this level of development (in gross level mind) both the differentiation of body and mind (and dis-embedding of consciousness slightly) and formal deductive reasoning are what opened me up to the possibility that, good heaven, I can see now how maybe I could have been (or even was) “someone else.”

 

All for now. Hope those synapses and chakras are still firing. More to come . . .

---

"With whom or with what are you in communion at this moment?"
. . ."I?" he replied, almost mechanically. "Why not with anyone or anything."
"You must be a marvel . . . if you are able to continue in that state for long."
-Constantin Stanislavsky

kessels:

If all of this is tetra-arising in this moment? Where did you get that crazy idea from??

Hi, Peter.

Ummm....it is arising in the moment? And yes, it is crazy from conventional perspective, but I find it to be quite rational based on realizations brought about by studying with a non-dual teacher. This teacher contends that the nature of existence is infinite and eternal and that means that all of creation exists in every moment, transcending time. Without the linear progression of time there is no lifetime or lifetimes in which to incarnate or reincarnate. The infinite nature of creation means that we don't necessarily evolve, grow and change, but we sort of "travel" through the infinite field of consciousness and experience its content from different perspectives. Those perspectives include the content that we have witnessed and have identified with, making them attachments or beliefs or karma. Perhaps at some point in this journey through consciousness we take on the identity of a physical form and when that form wears out, we experience transformation from that seemingly solid form to a more subtle form. If we still are confused enough to identify with the body, then our karma or belief structure will necessitate that we reincarnate because to be out of body is just too confusing or dissonant to the structure of consciousness that we are identified with. At some point, perhaps we learn to disidentify with the body and no longer reincarnate.


Anyway, it's just another perspective or belief structure that happens to make sense to me in this moment, and it does include a basis for explaining how this "big-ass holodeck works, that's all." I did not mean to imply that I did not believe in reincarnation or that I had somehow evolved to a level of consciousness where I had transcended the belief. What I was writing was my conceptual scheme as seen from this perspective.

Within that scheme, I "work" with a couple of psychic healers, including my teacher who I believe to be an exceptionally gifted psychic as that is one of the siddhis that accompanies his stage of development (enlightenment? I believe so but that is only my perspective....this teacher does not operate in any lineage or tradition, and tends to be very integral in teaching...but that's besides the point) and my own introspection and intuition on clearing out belief structures that I have apparently been clinging to for many, many lifetimes, so to speak. Nonetheless, it is not about the past (as I see it anyway), as in going into the past by some sort of psychic time travel and arriving at the point just before making a karmic "mistake" and undoing it that way. The way I work with these healers is to bring healing into my field of consciousness right now, and the process almost always results in some felt subtle body experience, such as chakra charging or clearing or nadi twitching or just a lighter emotional feeling, etc.

kessels:

If you have the time and energy, read the thread, it's great!

I plan to. I just couldn't wait to throw in some more stuff for consideration because I have thought about it quite a bit. Looking forward to continuing this discussion.


Keith

---

Peace. It does not mean to be in a place where there is no noise, trouble or hard work. It means to be in the midst of those things and still be calm in your heart. -unknown

Timelody sometimes my printer does not print your posts however everyone else's I get.  Nevertheless I took your post to the beach and enjoyed your comment on lucid dreaming and possibly helping you pick a body in your next life.  When I was in fifth grade I would lucid dream all the time.  So much so I was worried.  Loved Hiaku poetry as a child also.  Now that I am older I am going to try to get back into meditating and lucid dreaming.   Love your posts.   Tricia

---

when two people agree on everything all of the time one of them is not necessary

Subtle energy is part of my creative work.  What I like to do is take a clients astro info and their enneagram, profile with info to determine their 'dosha' which resonates to certain elements.  I also look at their blood type.  I use my intuition to raise their consciousness to their unique subtle energetic make up and what they can do to raise their consciousness.  Your comments on our subtle energetic make up intrigue me. 

What I have a problem with is when people start to claim their 'masters' out there determining your path.  The word purpose is difficult for me to fathom because as we reach to spirit, spirit is reaching to us.  It just seems to open the door to some pretty narcissitic way of thinking.  Because that part of you that survives death is also part of a larger picture, etc.   Tricia

 

---

when two people agree on everything all of the time one of them is not necessary

lol, for anyone who noticed my earlier post-scribble, i soo changed the year # of my quija sp? board question/answer on 'egypt' incarnation from 10 thousand something to 1 thousand something.!

quite the eclectic collection of this that and everything in between birth/death thought-shares here.

 i think one of the more startling for me 'hints' of been there done that was in a dream-vision experience, where i was led to follow 'healing' . maybe because the seed was planted earlier by my spiritual development teacher rev. John White during one of his psychic, on "future" - reading for me? ...during which he kept listening to "beautiful angel voices  singing" , saying sev. times "this has never happened before..."..and the rest is for my ears only.

at any rate in vision i was talking to "excentric woman" ...she wrote a book ... watching an open air  train type-thing full of 'weird / excentric' people..."they belive in magic" she said , to which i replied "if you have the knowledge you can make it happen" ...

 next i'm standing inside a circle of red-clad men, who tower/stand way taller than me...i did the 360 scan-thing, and decided "i'm atta here!"  ...next feeling trapped...crouching in cramped space ... and decided to go back.... a woman on my left asked me to pick a small, flat, square n' shimmery object , which i did confidently , being aware it's a test...next, a mega surge of energy lifted me off the ground and i floated off...room full of people...paused in front of a "couple in love" sitting at the table..she wore creme color top....and that was that!

a couple of days later, sitting in meditation ...incense floating DIRECTLY  towards me, which i thought was strange, because there was no draft of any kind etc...and lo i realized all of a sudden what the above subtle adventure told me...not at all knowing what reiKI was about , what energy healing was all about!  none-the-less, i signed up for a workshop and recognized my 'dream woman on left' as my reiKI teacher...who too was on my left (first day of workshop) when she asked if i wanted to learn this...to overhwelmed with all that transpired up to that point i think i just shook my head and smiled 'yes'.

funy thing happened....some months later i displaced/lost  a small, black and square 'healing crystal' , which carried in my pocket to the classes...and only made the 'aha, same as in dream, which led me here' connection, when it was gone...even my teacher looked for it to no avail! which was just as well, by then it got replaced by a soft 'spring green' little triangle shaped crystal stone - i'm pretty sure it was emerald, which was found on the northren shores of lake Superior.

gawed helen, are we feelin' a bit  long-winded? why not eh? everyone else is too!:(

h

  

Tim talking about his opportunity to leave the body and dying:

timelody:

.....and I've never told anyone this but . . . I had that opportunity once. Yes, and I knew the absolute terror would cease if I accepted . . . . and all the answers and everything . . . but I couldn't do that to my mother . . . I knew it would all be fine, but I just couldn't do it to her, she wouldn't understand . . . .

Same here. Exactly. I wanted nothing more than to stay in the Clear Light as That -- but I just couldn't do that to my mother.... her suffering would have drawn me back anyhow. And what good are you as a disembodied spirit witnessing everything, trying to help, but largely ineffective?

In my experience, it is not just gross desire that compels spirit to take form. Often it is heartbreaking compassion. And we cannot teach that or even learn it. It is part of the Love underlying absolutely everything, even the most crystal-clear nondual awareness. At least that's what I keep getting in my endless quest to go deeper, deeper...and then find what's underlying that.

As the Heart Sutra says ~

Gone, gone, gone beyond
gone beyond beyond

Hail the Goer!

Mascha,

Yes!



And boy, . . . mom? Seriously! I wasn't expecting that. It's obviously very profound. I coulda' cared less about anybody else . . . everything would'v been fine . . . . but I just couldn't do that to my mother.

Wow.

More later.

Tim

---

"With whom or with what are you in communion at this moment?"
. . ."I?" he replied, almost mechanically. "Why not with anyone or anything."
"You must be a marvel . . . if you are able to continue in that state for long."
-Constantin Stanislavsky

 

 

 

You must re-enter the market place.

 

 

 

---

"With whom or with what are you in communion at this moment?"
. . ."I?" he replied, almost mechanically. "Why not with anyone or anything."
"You must be a marvel . . . if you are able to continue in that state for long."
-Constantin Stanislavsky

Now that I know we're on the same wave-length this is where is starts to get fun and where ILP and so and so and so on become extremely important. And why, NOW, as never before in history we have a chance here to realize it.

Karma is not just descending, it is ascending.

Get yourself as entangled as you want . . . and then start doing something good.

And this is where "karma" turns on it's head entirely.

Plant a seed of yourself, and let that flower grow, it want to become a tree and this is the glory of the Kosmos.

As the tree dies each winter, it will come back to life again much stronger, and eventually start sprouting more seeds and more trees.

Nature has had it right . . . . all along.

And how could it ever be otherwise?

---

"With whom or with what are you in communion at this moment?"
. . ."I?" he replied, almost mechanically. "Why not with anyone or anything."
"You must be a marvel . . . if you are able to continue in that state for long."
-Constantin Stanislavsky

timelody:

You must re-enter the market place.

~ ? ~

Edit: Ah, I get it! I think...

Love
M

Second edit: Yes, Tim. I had not seen your second post - the one following the quote above. Now the beauty of your vision is unfolding over here... wow....