Hey everyone,

I thought the stream on Social Holons was so important that it needed its own thread.  Agree Emine? 

It's great to be here and to have a place where we can spitfire words at each other - in lieu of being warmly in the same room as we were in Perpignan - but I guess this is what we'll need to work with for now.

This is a carry-over of our off-line discussion from the past several weeks.  What I'd like to hear (read) people talk about is what kind of attention or shift do we need to apply to the lower quadrants?  i.e. social holons?

Emine has dumped some pretty nifty thoughts on us already - but what do other people think?  Come on folks -let's get dirty!

Cheers, Brian.

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BE

A Symphony Orchestra is a collective holon. That it is an individual entity is implicit in the fact that we refer to it as a and give it a name, symphony orchestra. But it is also a collective organization of many individual holons. But I think that we can give status to things as either a collective holon, or simply a collection of holons. And there is a difference.(This idea is born out of years involved in the performing arts.) A bunch of musicians just sitting around is merely a collection of holons. A bunch of muscicians even all playing individual notes and phrases of music is just a collection of holons. Given a unified action –or unified life-a collective holon emerges. And it emerges when it unifies with Upper Quadrants.

 

Enter Beethoven’s Fifth Symphony. Basically the score is an individual UR entity, born of an UL entity (who is actually now dead), but contains an organization of LR techniques, directions, cues –all that is needed to bring the symphony to life. Beethoven needs a collective holon for the realization of his music. Otherwise it just stays in his UL and dies with him, otherwise it is nothing more than a musical score with a bunch of meaningless symbols.

 

But handed to the symphony orchestra it will never be realized without an individual UL. It will be a collection of holons, either not acting at all or acting not as a single unified entity. Beethoven’s symphony was created –all these collections of notes (holons) as a single thing. So we can not hear Beethoven unless the collection of acting holons (the musicians) gets an UL –the symphony orchestra has the task of realizing Beethoven’s individual dominant monad, the self-correcting, unifying individual interior.

 

So we need and have a stand in, the conductor, who’s job is to individually interpret Beethoven’s UL and then direct (conduct) this collection of holons to realize it as well.

 

Beethoven’s Fifth Symphony is a collective holon and only emerges when the orchestra, a collection of holons, gains an UL. Incidentally, it is usually the case that when performance time comes, the musicians of the orchestra spend very little time looking at the conductor. They only look at moments when it is in some way necessary (various musical moments that can vary from performance to performance, especially like beginnings and ends). Because, Maestro Y, interpreting and standing in as UL for Beethoven has brought a unified UL to the collection of holons, who all now have that UL as part of their “being”- or certainly the Being of the symphony. In best case scenarios, it is true that Beethoven’s symphony emerges with a certain life of its own. I think it is the job and aim of the collective (or collection) to realize the symphony’s dominant monad. Allow it to live through their unified, collective effort.

 

The same scenario, and actually even much more complex, holds for a dramatic play. It is a collective art form but is only realized when the collection collected to realize it gains a self-correcting UL, explicit in the UL of each individual actor, through individual UL of the director, from individual UR play script to the UL of the playwright. What is incredible, however, is that often eve the playwright (or composer) will tell you that there’s more going on in the individual life of that play then they could ever have realized or take credit for. Lastly, once Beethoven’s Fifth or Tennessee Williams Glass Menagerie has been given to an audience, the collective nature of individual holon exists inside more and more individual UL’s. It very interesting, really.

 

But my main point, is to suggest that collective holons only exist if they are somehow unified and self-corrected by some kind of an individual UL. It exists and works inside all of the individual holons, but the existence is marked by some single self-correcting, identifying life in the UL.

 

Even a relationship between two people, requires something “the same” in our individual UL’s and so I propose this is the UL of the relationship, as a single entity.

 

Without an individual UL it is not a collective holon, but a collection of holons. (To use my prefered jargon - collective, rather than social, for description purposes.)

 

And so I think the Lower Quadrants are made up of both collections and numerous, multiple, collectives - and a collective holon is marked by the presence of an individual UL of some kind.

 

And incidentally, I believe that the miracle of a collective UL is the Miracle of "We."

 

Thoughts? Feedback? Pulverizing criticisms?

 

Peace, Tim

 

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"With whom or with what are you in communion at this moment?"
. . ."I?" he replied, almost mechanically. "Why not with anyone or anything."
"You must be a marvel . . . if you are able to continue in that state for long."
-Constantin Stanislavsky

Dear Brian and Tim:  I have ask for something like this in the best words I could and when I listened to KW and the Fielding students, I was so envious that I could not have something like that NOW!   I think that they were calling what Tim did here a story.  I could have listed to 50 more. And more than that since there are so many ways to  put them together.   So I would like for you to be my teachers while you debate and spitfire.  I would be very grateful if you would remember that you are "playing' to some like me who are just trying to learn.  I feel sure there will be more of us.Where can I read Ermine's nifty thoughts?  And/or "the carry over from the Post's several weeks ago.  And what is/was Perpigian' off line discussion.

I assume part of that is a more expensive bundle- not sure.  It will be by Amazing Grace if I get to stay with this.  It feels that way since this past week has brought more complication to my life with a daughter who has two or three dis-orders, and is alcohol and crack addict.  What has gone down may bring the rest of the family around to being supportive or running scared.  Good changes are there but fragile. We need better help as was what CNN and A. Cooper did a fairly thourough show on tonite.  Better help for our mentally ill.   I write this as I am not going to repeat it on other threads and want others to know that I am going to focus on learning and the examples are just what I need.  I simply have to struggle to understand written

theory.  In fact,  I was sure this weekend that I needed to check out for awhile.\Thenwent thru the My " Not Read Posts" with little enthusiasm and thinking seriously of taking this break (taking it easy) for awhile.  Taking my own good advice that I give others and following it.  For some reason, I punch your title and I could feel some life coming back , knowing that it is important to me.  There are not too many things that are important when these events knock you (me) off balance.  I will know that you support me in this without a big thing made about it.  This is to let you know I will be here, maybe sporadicly and quietly until I have a question and that this has given me something to l ook forward to.  I thank you for that.  I was ready for a book of these examples  or two or three.  I know the offers that are out there and I cannot make committments to them at this time and more schooling and tests are not high on my list anymore.       Now I know why not all Sym Orchestras do not make Carnegie Hall and also why any thing that has all the quadrants brings forth the response and is Divine esp in the Arts.  I love Bach and Immortal Beloved (music from the movie).  And in my field most of us have read the Mozzart Effect.   I feel so informed and peaceful right now.  Information is so important and the way it is presented is also.   I took journalism in college and we learned that the first page of every newspaper was written on a seventh grade level so that everyone could understand it.  There is something to that for the difference in all of us here.  And I for one will learn best with stories.          7 is not a magic number esp here at Integral and there are many way of learning.  Thanks for hearing me out.  Warmly Pattye