 15 Jan 2024, 11:19 AM
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adastra
 
Joined on 01-13-2006
Posts 1,291
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cross-posted from the old thread
uh...wha...? Are you guys still talking about trademarks? No, it's fascinating, seriously.
arthurzzzzzzzzz...
Seriously, why not link to the old thread (as I have done) so everybody can enjoy in full what may be one of the most significant debates of the early 21st century? ![[8-)]](../../../public/forums/emoticons/in_subdomain/emotion-43.gif)
arthur
you've never seen everything
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15 Jan 2024, 1:45 PM
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ClearSky
Joined on 01-14-2006
Posts 199
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Good idea Arthur, thanks. I think copy/pasting the thread-beginning post along with a link is a good idea. It will depend on the thread of course, but in most cases I think you are right. I'll put a link in the opener right after posting this. I suppose you could make a case for providing a link only, but I would be reluctant to only provide the link -- some people (liz, for example) are having trouble accessing the old forum.
There are so many kinks and questions about the workings, features, and lack of features on this new forum that I'm guessing a lot of folks will be hanging out or staying with the old forum.
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As to this thread's topic. I think that, like most organizations and movements there will always those who favor thinking that leads to trademarking etc., and those who don't.
I enjoy debate, and I think this one is particularly important. May this debate and any other debates that arise be given a chance to flourish. And, of course, we can always let the sleeping dogs lie.
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15 Jan 2024, 3:12 PM
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tamgoddess
Joined on 01-13-2006
Sacramento, CA
Posts 792
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I can get to the old forum and read everything. I can't log in. So I can't post anything or get to my old mailbox. I'd love it if old threads were moved here via Arthur's suggestion of links.
Liz
AFGO
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18 Jan 2024, 2:30 PM
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ClearSky
Joined on 01-14-2006
Posts 199
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Re: Trademarking AQAL?
Attachment: dinosafpic.jpg
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One of the problems with trademarking a philosophical or scientific model and idea is that it is then taken . . .
out of the meme-poolelpt
and thereby excluded from the competitive process and interactions that would enable it to participate in the intellectual evolution of ideas.
Again, trademarking itself, when used appropriately, is fine, wonderful, to be welcomed.
But . . . what if, somehow, the biological equivalent of trademarking occurred a billion or so years ago -- we would not even be here, but the lucky Trademarcasaurus would be.
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18 Jan 2024, 4:42 PM
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infimitas
Joined on 01-13-2006
Nottingham, UK
Posts 158
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*groan*
Has Ken actually stated his reasons for the trademark? For all I know he has absolutely no intention whatsoever to be a fascist and rigidly control everything AQAL, but just wants to prevent some corporation misusing it. It seems to me that assuming evil intent is perhaps a bit presumptuous.
Gavin --
Man is the measurer of all things
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18 Jan 2024, 5:19 PM
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adastra
Joined on 01-13-2006
Posts 1,291
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*groan*
Has Ken actually stated his reasons for the trademark? For all I know he has absolutely no intention whatsoever to be a fascist and rigidly control everything AQAL, but just wants to prevent some corporation misusing it. It seems to me that assuming evil intent is perhaps a bit presumptuous. |
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Yeah, at some point it might be cool to hear from the BBG on it. Might (if there is a god?) finally kill this issue, or at least mutate it (in true memetic evolutionary fashion).
Hmm...I would venture to say by now we pretty much know how CSG feels about trademarking AQAL.
arthur
you've never seen everything
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18 Jan 2024, 10:53 PM
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ClearSky
Joined on 01-14-2006
Posts 199
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| Adastra wrote: I would venture to say by now we pretty much know how CSG feels about trademarking AQAL. |
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Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
btw, i shortened CSG to CS -- just plain ClearSky (no Guy).
Thanks for listening,
ClearSky
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19 Jan 2024, 7:35 AM
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elementstew
Joined on 01-13-2006
Posts 553
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Damn, just lost a post...
www.integralwiki.net/?title=Main_Page
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19 Jan 2024, 7:59 AM
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elementstew
Joined on 01-13-2006
Posts 553
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I'm going to have to read that thread about editing....
The post I lost was a psychoanalysis of KW and how the trademarking issue factors into play....trying again.
Most of this involves the self-identity line and how it relates to the growth into self and then to selfless.
First we need to look at selfless and what that really is. Two good historical examples of selflessness can be found with Jesus and Socrates. Both men were willing to die for thier principles (meme level messeges). They had faith that what they expoused was more important than thier mere mortal being. More examples might be found among the Founding Father who put thier lives on the line for the betterment of society and who all died in relative poverty. Mother Teresa lived a life in the service of others without seeking any personal gain. All of these seem like good examples of people who lived for things greater than themselves.
We should also look at KW's relationship with the green meme. Acedemia is a bastion of green. Acedemia has failed to acknowledge the works of KW. Because of this, KW has a bias against the entire meme. No wonder he favors blue which is kind of the arch-enemy of green.
KW has his sense of identity so tied-up with his life's work that he cant move beyond it. It represents his red ego and orange achievements. The trademarking and alledged hypercontrolling micromanagement of II stem from his sense of self and his lif'e work. Because he is so invested in his red ego and orange achievements, he cannot transcend into a stable permanent selfless state. Perhaps this is why he is so obsessed with meditation. Meditation provides a sense of selflessness, which he knows is the upper end of development. Therefore he must continually reinforce this sense by induceing a temporary state in place of what should be a permanent trait.
www.integralwiki.net/?title=Main_Page
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19 Jan 2024, 2:40 PM
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ClearSky
Joined on 01-14-2006
Posts 199
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Re: Trademarking AQAL?
Attachment: legaldocument.jpg
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elementstew wrote:
"We should also look at KW's relationship with the green meme. Acedemia is a bastion of green. Acedemia has failed to acknowledge the works of KW. Because of this, KW has a bias against the entire meme."
Plausible.
I think most of us hanging out here have been helped and inspired by Wilber's writings. So any criticism leveled at him, for the most part, does nothing more than underscore his humanity and all that goes with being human -- makes clear he is one of us -- who doesn't have problems with his or her ego? I'm sure not going to cast the first stone.
The world of copyright, profits, ownership, and trademarks is certainly a legitimate place to hang out. But science and philosophy, properly done, operate outside of that world.
The business world appropriates what science and philosophy discover.
We can argue over which enterprise -- scientific/philosophical vs. commercial/business -- is more appropriate for a given goal or activity, but whatever the outcome -- the scientific/philosophical and commercial/business realms maintain their mutual boundaries.
Trademarking is a necessity when you market educational products, which is what Wilber and I-I are doing. And that's his choice. Research in psychology, philosophy, the arts, sciences will simply continue on without him.
This is not bad; it's what's happening, that's all.
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19 Jan 2024, 3:35 PM
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infimitas
Joined on 01-13-2006
Nottingham, UK
Posts 158
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 ClearSky wrote: | | Research in psychology, philosophy, the arts, sciences will simply continue on without him [Ken Wilber]. |
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Oh yeah, that's right, all those billions of people interested in AQAL are now abandoning it in droves because of those letters "TM".
Gavin --
Man is the measurer of all things
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19 Jan 2024, 3:50 PM
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ClearSky
Joined on 01-14-2006
Posts 199
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infimitas wrote: that's right, all those billions of people interested in AQAL are now abandoning it in droves because of those letters TM
No, not all of them, just some of them. And, not necessarily abandoning, just looking on from a healthy distance at a very worthwhile educational outreach taking us to the next level.
This is simply what is happening whether we choose to acknowledge it or not. Do a google on Wilber. A lot of it is mean-spirited, but not all of it.
And there's nothing wrong with this. I am just pointing it out.
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20 Jan 2024, 4:34 AM
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infimitas
Joined on 01-13-2006
Nottingham, UK
Posts 158
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So what's new? People have been writing mean-spirited stuff about Ken for years. I've yet to see any evidence that trademarking the term AQAL is causing significant numbers of people to leave the scene, yet you keep asserting that is precisely what will happen. Maybe you've looked into the akashic records and seen the future?
Gavin --
Man is the measurer of all things
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