I came across some interesting stuff today.  Here is a paper co-written by Zelikow in '98.  Eerily parallels developments three years later!  Remember, this was later to be the principal author of the 9/11 commission report.

http://www.ksg.harvard.edu/visions/publication/terrorism.htm#About+Visions+of+Governance

And this is just plain frightening.  Check out the date on the charter of our new government. 

http://www.oas.org/charter/docs/resolution1_en_p4.htm

There is some truly troubling and intentionally vague language in this document.  Colin Powell was scheduled to be in Lima on 9/11.  Starting to get the picture yet?

Here's an org chart for our soon to be North American Union:

http://www.oas.org/documents/eng/organigramaOEAeng.pdf

Hi guys, it's my first post here.  I have read a few of Wilber's books (No Boundary, Grace and Grit, The Marriage of Sense and Soul, and One Taste) and I have occasionally visited this forum.

Anyways, have any of you heard of Dutch controlled demolition expert Danny Jowenka? He was interviewed by a Dutch TV show called Zembla.  This videos are I think a must see:

1. Jowenka on WTC 1 + 2.  He says they were not brought down by controlled demolition: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkZMQAC95kI

2. Jowenka now on WTC 7--this shocked me: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=877gr6xtQIc

---

Thinking has become a disease. Not to be able to stop thinking is a dreadful affliction, but we don't realize this because almost everybody is suffering from it, so it is considered normal. - Eckhart Tolle

Hi Healy,

 

“Hi guys, it's my first post here.”

 

Welcome Healy.

 

Obviously there are many pros and cons of argument over the 911 situation. Sorting them out seems to be endless. Frankly I'm more interested in the phenomenon which, for want of a better term, i call the conspiratorial mindset. To look at this mindset it is necessary to set aside (for the moment) any notions of whether or not a given conspiracy is real.

 

This mindset, like all others, of course is a subset of human consciousness. In general terms what happens in an individual witnessing an event that something impresses it. That impression then is subject to interpretation, a process of both mind and brain, i.e. both interior and exterior. These interpretations, which go on all the time, are in turn modified by the state and structure of a given consciousness as it has evolved to date. As a general rule the higher the degree of advancement, the more it is capable of an accurate interpretation.

 

Along the path of development, misadventures can and do occur. Even the development of a so-called separate self comes with an inborn bias, and is subject to its own misdemeanors and misadventures. Sometimes these occur at given switch-points or areas that are likely to affect or otherwise impede later expressions of development. One such switch-point happens when an individual’s need to express itself comes under tension from the collective from which it must arise. And if that tension is strong, (pressed from both sides of the equation) a result in a given individual may be a tendency to bend the impressions as they go through the interpretation process. In common parlance an echo of which can be found in the phrase, ‘If the mind is like a hammer, everything looks like a nail’.

 

Obviously, standing up against the weight of one’s culture is not easy; but in the process of going through a switch-point if one is unsure of one’s value at the ground-of-being level that it can easily happen that doubts about one’s personal value can arise, an uncomfortable process to be sure. Typically such doubts can be repressed, but the ‘energy’ that goes into them will none-the-less seek an outlet, which when habituated can turn into the conspiratorial mindset.

 

On a personal note i am reminded of dealing with my ‘wacky’ son, a man in his mid forties. Two years ago he had so deteriorated in mental condition that i flew to him in California, rented a vehicle and brought him back to the Midwest to live with me. His conspiratorial mindset had lapsed into paranoia so pronounced that he found it difficult to even enter a restaurant! At first, my approach to dealing with him was indirect, i.e. getting him to help me; and not confronting him with his need for help with his problems. He was convinced that ‘they’ were out to get him. It was rocky going, but after some months it was arranged to find him an apartment of his own in a nearby town where he had found employment. I then felt free enough to bring some of his issues out into the open; but he resisted this move forcefully and angrily via an email, demanding, “Who do you think you are?” I responded, ‘Who do you think you are not!?”

 

Warmly,

 

Charles

88W18'28" 41N58'02"

Charles said: " Obviously, standing up against the weight of one’s culture is not easy; but in the process of going through a switch-point if one is unsure of one’s value at the ground-of-being level that it can easily happen that doubts about one’s personal value can arise, an uncomfortable process to be sure. Typically such doubts can be repressed, but the ‘energy’ that goes into them will none-the-less seek an outlet, which when habituated can turn into the conspiratorial mindset."

Charles, this is interesting. Could you elaborate on this? How do doubts about one's personal value translate into a conspiratorial mindset? Also, is a conspiratorial mindset the only possible outlet? Could there be other reasons for a conspiratorial mindset than doubts about one's value? What makes things really tricky, though, is that quite often people and governments do have ulterior motives. They're saying one thing and doing another.

Thanks, Healey. Glad you're here. With regard to WTC 7, you might be interested in this link. Most pictures don't reveal any damage to WTC 7, but it appears that there was significant damage on the south side, that in fact a big chunk had been taken out. It may have extended all the way across the south side of the building. The Dutch demolition expert said that WTC 7 collapsed from the bottom, but it doesn't appear that he saw low enough on the south face to see this damage, or perhaps he wasn't looking at the south face at all.You'll see the southwest corner of WTC 7 in the second picture on this link:

http://www.911myths.com/html/wtc7_damage.html

mm

Hi MM,

 

Yes, there are other reasons that may underlie the conspiratorial mindset; however there is always a tension between how we self-value (our opinion of ourselves) and our self-expression –including the giving of affection. It may take some introspection (or other examination) to reveal the truth of this statement but just look at a simple phenomenon common here in cyberspace such as the vast difference in the numbers of lurkers compared to the numbers of posters. Even common forms of anonymity are not sufficient to overcome the inhibiting factors connected to our self-valuing, of which possible embarrassment is only one example.

 

This tension works the other way too, the finer, clearer, more accurate, and helpful is our expression the more we are able to establish, hold, and maintain a sufficient self valuing.

 

This tension has an extension not only in the realm of the singular but the realm of the plural, i.e. the better we value ourselves, the better we express, (singular); the more we are attractive to the other, both in one-on-one relationships and in groups (plural). More examples of this tension can be found in the relationship between sex and money –it’s from the same source.

 

From my view all motives, our tendencies to run toward or away (fear or desire), are ‘ulterior’; better to free ourselves from such restraints, and see things as they are in their suchness; thus enabling ourselves to make better decisions. One way towards this freedom is truthfulness; making it a habit, i.e. living it from moment-to-moment empowers us to better recognize the truth when it appears.

 

And finally, early on in my attempts to understand the socio-political world i came across a truism expounded by a political scientist, “Never judge politicians (solely) by what they say; rather by what they do.”

 

Warmly,

 

Charles

88W18'28" 41N58'02"

 

   

 

Charles, thank you very much. I find that very, very helpful. Very helpful to look at things in terms of self-valuing.

Charles said: "From my view all motives, our tendencies to run toward or away (fear or desire), are ‘ulterior’; better to free ourselves from such restraints, and see things as they are in their suchness; thus enabling ourselves to make better decisions. One way towards this freedom is truthfulness; making it a habit, i.e. living it from moment-to-moment empowers us to better recognize the truth when it appears."

This is really great too. We might also say that fear and desire are attributes of the personal, or frontal, self and that the impulse towards greater truth, freedom, and beauty are attributes of the deeper psychic (Wilber), or the psychic being (Aurobindo), or authentic self (Cohen).

Also, I want to make it clear that I am really not suggesting that anyone who believes in the 9/11 conspiracy theories has a "conspiratorial mindset." For one thing, I think they are half right already when they notice all the coverups and obfuscations on the part of the Bush/Cheney adm. (probably to cover up incompetance before and after). Particularly in Republican administrations there are always some people who will do some sneaky things if they think they can get away with it, and this administration is probably the worst so far. So there is good reason to watch them very closely.

With love,

mm

Charles I was very moved by your posts. The state you described your son in, is one of extreme vulnarabilty. I am one talking from experience for I can identify with such a state. But for unknown causes other than something in my being , I was able to not get frozen and able to move with such great forces and be a normal human being. This is a strange dimension, the paraniod. Since in the depth of such aloneness. which is very hard to express, I had movement and in that movement I found interelation and a dance that lets me play with a force I have come to know, as the test of all humanity. Evil. Is a test because it lives in our denial of our unity. That their is not your mind, our, my mind but THE MIND. So, Evil is a virus that is networked in the truth of our unity. If we are not consciously aware that the mind is not contained, then life force that is not lived ,WILL be used by life that can. Thus in our denial, Evil exsists. Evil is expressing the truth that we are all connected, just that it feeds off of us ,not knowing our true selfs.

With the stage model in integral, I have become aware that to understand any stage I have to understand the stage above and below that stage. I think the integral stage development  can see the postmodern stage clearly but what does that say of understanding the integral stage. That means exploring the holonic stage. The integral stage, is a movement for being integrated with the centers that have relation within the somatic body up to the top of the head. Integration at this stage allows for great movement of awareness within the energy body( very blissful in itself). Holonic stage of development begins with the movement of awareness outsides the boundaries of the energy body into the Kosmos. A,  I  infinity relationship. From the holonic perspective, we are profoundly not alone. The dead are not dead, beings can exisist without a physical body, other layers of exsistence show up as complete, just like our world. The holonic, is the quantum level of the internal dimension. But at this level what you perceive is full and complete just like this world. You can die there just like you can here. This relationship, in holonic, to pragmatic movement outside the luminous body, is what wakes humanity to its unaloneness in the universe. We will be entering, We the galaxy. I think this is way off into the future. I can not impress on you how important your social action is at this time, for that future. For us collectively to enter the great promise that Integral has, we will need a economic system that has integrity not just in a dialectical way but in trialectics. Trialectics brings not just the comprehension of gradual change but also of radical shift in a system or a quantum change. That wealth is not just made from hard work , progressive. But that wealth is also a pregiven depending on the order of the system.  Order in the internal domain ( greater energy) which opens into the Kosmos at large, the infinite. 

Postmodern level of development is a nightmare, right now, because it does not have the capacity to comprehend a non singular mind, while it practices ,the web connectedness, on the biological world. Boomeritis tells the story. And right now, forces that we are in denial about, are going to rear their heads. I hate to do this but the hour is getting late, please give Ron Paul www.ronpaul2008.com a good look.

Hi Innerline,

 

“I have become aware that to understand any stage I have to understand the stage above and below that stage.”

 

Alas things do not work quite like this. Understanding the stages one has passed through has a basis, it’s a sort of ‘been there, done that’ type of thing. Stages that are more encompassing (above) than the one we occupy are relatively invisible to us, in the same way that being a teenager is invisible to a preschooler. We might have some clue that it exists, but real understanding awaits the fullness.

 

I am not without some sympathy for the libertarian view of things political, and in my 5 decade career as a voter have cast a ballot for more that one such. But there are valid reasons why Ron Paul’s candidacy (or that of any libertarian) is unlikely to go anywhere, as he (they) run up against formidable opposition from both the two main voting blocks in the US.

 

The way things stand today Hillary Clinton has the best chance of being elected in 2024 and i have yet to see anything or anyone that stands in her way. But let’s be clear about what we will be getting. Of all of the presidents to date it’s my view that her presidency will most likely mirror that of John Adams. Her blind spot will likely cause problems.

 

Warmly,

 

Charles

88W18'28" 41N58'02"

 

 

 

  

Charles, I think we are saying the same thing about stages. To experience a level is not to understand it. Not be able to see it.

And your thing on Hillary is basically a depressing state of seeing how powerful media is and just letting them determine the debate. And Hillary is for wars. Wow. How hypocritical liberals will look if she gets into office. If this happens, I will not be in this country. The financial element is key in understanding inevitable collapse. Meaning it does not matter who gets in, but what you want after the collapse. With Hillary you will get a police state. With Ron Paul you will have your rights and your vitality to recreate culture. So Charles , how up to date are you in financial matters? Cause I know very , very , very few that are. Are you currently watching what is happening in the credit markets, the dollar, the yen carry trade, derivatives, and understand the implications? This is not normal knowledge, I guess. This info points out that the collapse has begun. Powers that be can delay it but not disguise the last result, which is collapse. Watch with me. 

Hi Charles,

Thanks for your continuing participation in the thread.  Welcome Healy. 

While I too found Charles' post moving, I don't find the idea of a "conspiratorial mindset' very useful.  Sounds more like you're describing paranoia.  Recognizing patholgies, both in individuals and groups of individuals can look different from different altitudes.  That's what I'm gathering, at least in part, from your previous posts.  The problem I see here is that "conspiratorial mindset" is too broad and that I can think of any number of situations where you might use this generic label to describe healthy transformation.  At what point did American colonists realize their own oppression at the hands of King George?  At what point did Germans realize that it was too late to stand up to Hitler?  At what point did Indians see that their future may be brighter standing with Ghandi, an unlikely hero, rather than the might of the British Crown?  In each of these instances, a few recognized a conflict that many failed to understand at the time.
What I'm getting at here is that at any altitude, there are blind spots.  In fact, the higher the altitude, the  higher the potential for even greater mistakes.  I could go into my struggles to get my head and heart around these issues, and describe this path from the perspective of each of the four quadrants, but this would be a lengthy project indeed.  But just know that my investigation has not been merely of the right hand quadrants. 

Part of this investigation I described in earlier threads.  Having been in Manhattan on 9/11 I experienced the events in an immediate way.  Looking back now it is fascinating to me to become aware of the profound pyschological effects.  Trauma makes one highly suggestible, terribly dependent on any person or idea that can give comfort and survival.  That was my moment of the "conspiratorial mindset".  It wasn't until maybe 2024 that I even heard anyone talk about alternate theories of 9/11.  I resisted even hearing it.  I was physically repulsed.  It made me sick to my stomach getting into a conversation with a friend.  This was not a rational response.  When I stopped being revolted and started thinking rationally and really investigating, it still took a couple of years of research and soul searching.  And that part continues.  I do not have any fixed idea of exactly what happened, but something is definitely rotten to the core here. 

You see, the official story of what happened on 9/11 is the real conspiracy theory.  Six years later, not one indictment, not one real investigation, not one prosecution.  And further, the actions of our leaders in the aftermath were CRIMINAL.  A crime scene utterly destroyed, all safety protocols ignored, everything done in secret.  And none to hold accountable except a US sponsored terrorist in a cave and a US made dictator waiting on an inevitable date with the gallows.  Check out the FBI's page on Osama.  Why no mention of 9/11? 

http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/topten/fugitives/laden.htm

Why do so many people want to believe in conspiracy theories that put Bush and Cheney behind 9/11?  To accept the notion that Bush and company conspired to bring down the twin towers means that they would have to have a level of competency that has proven to be sorely lacking elsewhere.  It would also mean that they were so insanely evil that no other mass murderer in history even comes close.

All of the movies seem to rely on the idea that explosions went off in the building before it came down.  Why is it so hard to believe that in a building where millions of pipes, wires and support beams run from the top floor to the ground that some might cause windows to blow out in the moments before the whole building fell?

Even if you can't find it in yourself to understand the simple engineering fact interconnected pipes and beams ran from top to bottom in the building, why would anyone thing George Bush planted the bombs on those floors rather than an advance demolition team sent by Osama?   

The ideas presented in favor of conspiracy here have been so lacking of even a basic understanding of the human condition and human motivation, and the theories so lacking in any integral objectivity that this thread has turned into a tower of Babel.

The world is full of motivated 'true believers' and they can be found on every side of every issue across the world.  Dozens of them have hijacked planes in the past.  Why is it so hard to believe that a few of them took things a few steps farther?  A single terrorist with a big box of kitchen matches and a motorcycle could burn down half the country on a hot dry day.  Why is it considered more likely that 9/11 was some massive highly controlled James Bond style caper (involving hundreds of insiders) cooked up by our own government as part of a grand plan to take over the world? 

Get real people!

---

Peace & Prosperity

Paul Williams
http://Paul.ikarma.com

It would be a mystery worth studying by itself if ALL the people who have been questioning the official conspiracy theory were somehow mentally unstable, confused, paranoid and/or delusional - starting with ret. General Wesley Clark.

Patriots Question 9/11 provides public testimony and calls for an independent investigation of 9/11 events from

110+ Senior Military, Intelligence Service, Law Enforcement, and Government Officials
170+ Engineers and Architects
50+ Pilots and Aviation Professionals
140+ Professors
180+ 9/11 Survivors and Family Members
80+ Entertainment and Media Professionals


Scroll down to the bottom of the page to find more links to Pilots for 9/11 Truth ---  Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth --- Scholars for 9/11 Truth and other relevant groups, including eyewitnesses and victim's families.


M

Monkmonk,
Glad to see that you are pressing on in your investigation of WTC7 and the other towers.  Here are further resources that look at the questions of physics and engineering in a sober, rational, scientific way.  No creepy music, no sweeping conspiracy conclusions, just analysis of the facts:

http://www.911blogger.com/node/10025

http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200609/WhyIndeedDidtheWorldTradeCenterBuildingsCompletelyCollapse.pdf

http://stj911.com/evidence/wtc.html

http://www.studyof911.com/articles/winstonwtc701/

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6837001821567284154

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8672066571196607580

Hi Garbageman,

 

“I don't find the idea of a "conspiratorial mindset' very useful.”

 

I have no attachment to this usage, and as mentioned earlier i used it for want of a better term. It may however have utility, especially to those outside of the mindset it attempts to name.

 

Engaging a ‘conspirista’ on the level of ‘proofs’ is not simply a matter of wasted effort but is likely to be a detriment to the person caught in that mindset because it tends to set them looking for more ‘proofs’ and ends up re-enforcing their original positions, ‘deepening the groove in their synapses’; as this thread amply demonstrates.

 

So my approach to the subject has taken a different tack; just take the title of this thread for example, “9/11 was an inside job!” We know from integral theory that every event in human consciousness has an exterior and an interior. The ‘conspirista’ approach is to ‘proofs’ is one of exteriors, i.e. what happened to certain buildings, etc. At least equally valid is a possible examination of the ‘interior’ of a ‘conspirista’ –an inside job, for sure!

 

However, my approach is one of sympathy, and does not attempt to demean, deride, or belittle. From my view all have what i like to call essential human dignity, a rough equivalent to Buddha Nature, and deserve the best of what i have to offer.

 

Alas, liberating a ‘conspirista’ from a mindset is beyond my capacity. In matters like this such liberation appears to require the descent of Grace; all i can do is dutifully plow the ground.

 

Warmly,

 

Charles

88W18'28" 41N58'02"

 

 

Hi Innerline,

 

“I think we are saying the same thing about stages. To experience a level is not to understand it. Not be able to see it.”

 

Sorry i cannot agree. There is a test of the capacity of having understanding of a given stage, simply put it is predictability. Predictability can happen because to a great extent that which folks tend to say is largely the effects of a stage speaking through them. This works for baby talk, the romantic musings of a teenager, those caught in a mindset, the ravings of the mad, and importantly the words of the enlightened.

 

Warmly,

 

Charles

88W18'28" 41N58'02"