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Forgiveness
Last post 11-06-2006, 3:16 PM by timelody. 42 replies.
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11-03-2006, 6:14 AM |
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ChangchupNyima
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Joined on 09-26-2006
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Vermont
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Posts 38
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I think forgiveness is really "give-in-ness", and that meditation training is where we learn to be in a state of "give-in-ness" or openness. Openness to everything, give in to everything, allow everything, surrender to all that is.
When something has happened that cuts really deep, we want to push away or not allow whatever it is to exist. Quite simpy, we want to remove whatever is causing us distress from our awareness. That thing or event that has just hurt us so much is asking the question, "how deep is your being?" Where does your "I" begin and where does it end? And sometimes we don't get to have our sense of "I" decide how much to allow in and how much to keep out. Our "I" can't take what is happening so it starts asking questions like, "How can I forgive that person who has just hurt me so much?" Well, it is quite possible that "I" can never do that. "I" must be given up as an offering into the pain.
This is coming straight from my biggest heart so I feel a little bit challenged by these words even though they are coming out of me. I don't want to sound cavalier because I know that I myself am coming up against my own I's edges all the time. Nevertheless, as challenging as it sounds and is, my experience and my heart tell me that complete forgiveness only comes through complete openness, complete allowing, completely feeling whatever it is that we know is going to tear us into a million pieces.
As far as the "practice" of forgiveness? The real practice is to continually open, again and again. And notice when "I" wants to decide when, how, where, and how much to open and then give that up too. Again and again. Be openness. I think David Deida says, " be open as feeling." I really think that's the only way because anything else is probably just a way for our small "I" to stay in control. We can't forgive without being willing to feel pain.
Sincerely,
Jeffrey
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11-03-2006, 10:02 AM |
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fairyfaye
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Joined on 06-18-2006
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Vortex: fairyfaye, I believe those would be different levels of forgiveness, not different versions.
yes of course, those would be levels not versions .. thx vortex
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11-03-2006, 11:48 AM |
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geomo
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Joined on 06-21-2006
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Fairfax, VA
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Posts 179
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Points 3,300
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ChangchupNyima: ...my experience and my heart tell me
that complete forgiveness only comes through complete openness,
complete allowing, completely feeling whatever it is that we know is
going to tear us into a million pieces.
As far as the "practice" of forgiveness? The real practice is
to continually open, again and again. And notice when "I"
wants to decide when, how, where, and how much to open and then give
that up too. Again and again. Be
openness. I think David Deida says, " be open as
feeling." I really think that's the only way
because anything else is probably just a way for our
small "I" to stay in control. We can't forgive without
being willing to feel pain.
I agree, or should I say, I accept that version of forgiveness.
What I have noticed is that forgiveness, surrender, faith, trust, hope,
letting go, allowing, accepting, equanimity, etc., can all be seen as
the same practice in the context of humility. An example that I
use myself, and really the mainstay of all my practice, is to admit
that I don't know the Truth. Instant forgiveness isn't always
easy, but it can be made easier by humbly accepting that none of us
really has knowledge of good and evil. So, for me, to forgive is
really about forgiving myself for not knowing why I might be holding a
grudge in the first place. I might be pissed at someone, but I
really don't know why.
To not forgive would be vanity, such as to say, "I know what's best and
they should get what's coming!" Then there is all this energy
that gets invested in maintaining some position that can only be held
on limited ground, or from a limited perspective. I find that to
be exhausting.
On the other hand, when I am able to remember that this limited
perspective has no idea what motivates the Universe or any of the
holons that inhabit it. It takes away a huge burden of having to
justify my beliefs. This goes further to the concept that there
is some opposite to forgiveness. There's that which I condemn and
that which I praise. Well, what do I know about what I praise as
well as what I condemn? Only my limited perspective. And I
don't really want the burden of being judge and jury of the
world. I let myself off the hook. I'm not qualified to condemn or
to praise. I don't have the energy to do it. I don't know
anything.
It's a subtle difference between that kind of forgiveness and a total
copout, or a cynical attitude. I'm certainly no master at the
practice. I am no stranger to feeling sorry for myself and taking
on the victim mentality. But it is getting easier, or at
least more natural, even autonomous, to practice this kind of
forgiveness. It's not quite the same as just saying
"whatever." There has to be some sincerity (and to go deeper, how
does one even know they are being sincere?) and devotion to Truth that
colors the attitude that I don't know. At least, it seems most
fruitful for me to not only say that I don't know, but to also
acknowlege that there is Truth even if I don't happen to know it.
Now, it's pretty much automatic, or at least within seconds of noticing
that some mentally or emotionally indignant posture is settling in,
that i recognize that I don't know, and particularly don't know what is
setting me off. That totally deflates my ego and the result is
that events in my life and in the world just don't set me off like they
used to.
This practice had me in a bit of spiritual crisis recently, because I
couldn't get any traction, so to speak. It was kind of depressing,
but, as quoted above, I was willing to live with that pain and
surrender it. The practice of not knowing has sort of led me out of
having a problem with not knowing. So, after not feeling like I could
get form any sort of comprehensible statement, I am here today posting
nonsense and forgiving myself in the process
Keith
Peace. It does not mean to be in a place where there is no noise, trouble or hard work. It means to be in the midst of those things and still be calm in your heart. -unknown
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11-03-2006, 1:04 PM |
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adastra
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Joined on 04-18-2006
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Sacramento
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The essay Taking Care of Our Opposition has some relevance to this topic.
spirals,
arthur
I am seeking meaningful work. bio: http://aqalicious.gaia.com/ I spend most of my "forum time" these days on The Integral Pod: http://pods.gaia.com/ii/ "You've never seen everything." - Bruce Cockburn
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11-03-2006, 1:43 PM |
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11-03-2006, 2:55 PM |
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11-03-2006, 3:05 PM |
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gita
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Joined on 08-25-2006
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Posts 200
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ACIM is wonderfully deep isnt it?
My concern at the moment though is : dont try to forgive to early
dont try to do it because you know you should
this is the danger when the cognitive line in us is more developed than the rest. The sign of that is the "shoulds" in our selftalk.
I guess people are alluding to that when they talk about genuine forgiveness or spontaneous forgiveness. I just want to make it more explicit.Having tried to forgive before it was time, myself.That built up a real shadow.
Another way of putting this is that forgiveness comes after you have built up a strong boundary not before. If you try before than you are feeding a monster of rage in your subconsciousness.Perhaps.
I guess it parallels enlightenment - build up the ego before letting it go otherwise enlightenment is just an ego defence for a weak ego.
So I wonder how do I build up a strong boundary before I forgive? Feel the rage and anger at being violated (put ACIM aside for a bit) Feel the howl of your wounded animal. Your humanness and your relativity. All anger is a sign that you feel your boudnaries have been violated. This emotion helps build them up again.
That would be the first step to forgiveness. Scream, hate, lose it.
XX Gita
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11-03-2006, 3:18 PM |
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gita
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Joined on 08-25-2006
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oops I should add I dont mean scream hate lose it in the presence of the person that "violated" you. You need a safe container to do it in. They may be willing to provide that they may not. If they do its wonderful. but if not..
the pain is yours and I feel inflicting it on them is not the way (cant articulate why at present)....
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11-03-2006, 4:21 PM |
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tamgoddess
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Joined on 04-18-2006
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Sacramento, CA
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Hi, Gita-excellent question. I've been wrestling with this myself quite a bit. In fact, Robert Masters himself told me not to forgive too soon. Anger, like grief, runs its own course and can't be rushed. For me, it means holding two seemingly conflicting viewpoints at the same time. Sound familiar? It's quite a koan, this forgiveness. I find that I can feel anger at what was done, and righteously at that. But I can also allow myself to feel empathy for that person, for they are trapped in their own version of hell in order to be able to do that to me. One of the things that helps is to look back at my life and see similar things that I've done, remembering how it felt at the time. Invariably, I notice how much asleep I seemed to be at the time, and how I'm more awakened now. It's easy to make the leap from there to forgiveness. But that, too, is a process, not a single act. Even when it seems like a sudden thing, the unfolding of that has taken longer, like a building that's be under construction, the roof and siding are what you see, and they go on after the foundation has been laid for some time. So some days are much better than others. With my current struggle, I had a deep spiritual experience of forgiveness only 36 hours or so after the event in question, but I've had months of work after that as well. Both are a part of the same thing. Hm. I guess it's like a peak experience, or a state--and also it's a stage that is taking time to get to. Liz
Upgrade to ISC! http://integralinstitute.org/public/static/multispirit.aspx http://pods.gaia.com/ii
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11-03-2006, 6:08 PM |
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monkmonk
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Joined on 08-28-2006
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Thank you for all your replies. I think I've really learned some things.
1) I particularly like ChangchupNyima's reply because it seems to differentiate between translative forgiveness practices and transformative forgiveness practices. As he says, often when we want to forgive, or at least the way forgiveness is most commonly practiced, we are saying we want to stay as exactly the same being only we want to feel better and be in control. I think it was Einstein who said that the issues on one level will only be fully resolved when one moves up to the next level. Maybe, as I think Nyima said, on one level we will never want to forgive something, that on one level there will always be anger and blame and the desire for vengeance perhaps, that this stuff will always rise in our consciousness, and that we have to be open to that, we have to let ourselves feel that whenever it comes up without trying to change it if we want to transcend it. Perhaps it's only by allowing ourselves to feel those things completely and without trying to change them that we can transcend them.
2) I liked a number of the things R. A. Masters said as well. One of them was the way we inflate ourselves when we feel good and deflate ourselves when we don't feel good. If we identify with that inflation and deflation we couldn't very well respond in an enlightened manner. Also I liked this : "Being nonreactive requires the readily-activated ability and willingness to see and feel whatever opposes us as more than just something oppositional. This means ceasing to submit to -- or feed with attention -- our violent intentions and thoughts regarding our opposition." When he says "more than something oppositional" he seems to be saying that we can use this oppositon and these feelings for our transcendence, that they can actually help us. And I liked the parts about needing sometimes to take bedrock stands against things--we also need to take responsibility for things and build a better future.
3) Also I liked Gita's and Tamgoddess's comments about forgiving too early. Yes, I think that is, must be, a common side effect of forgiveness practices. Because of guilt or something or an inability to give space for not-so-spiritual thoughts we "forgive," but in doing so we only set the stage for acting out in some angry or controlling way in the future, probably with someone in a weaker position.
4) Also, with regard to fairyfaye's question about the sort of forgiving that's necessary for smaller things and the kind of forgiveness that's necessary for larger things, like the murder of a child, I think was her example, if our best friends spills a soda in our lap one day, we can forgive, probably fairly quickly, especially if it wasn't because of some habitual carelessness on the part of our friend, but if something really difficult happens, like losing a child, I think that really requires transformation. Onesome level we may never be able to completely expunge that anger and sadness and to try to would only hold us at that level. the only thing to do, or the most important thing, would seem to be to accept those feelings and rise to another level of being and action.
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11-03-2006, 6:13 PM |
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fairyfaye
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Joined on 06-18-2006
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really good point about looking back at similar things that we've done ... it's like the 'cast the first stone' thing .. i find this helps me too
then there's the whole LARGER scale ... for example, what happens in our hearts when we think of the crisis in dafur ??
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11-03-2006, 6:31 PM |
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11-03-2006, 9:22 PM |
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11-03-2006, 9:27 PM |
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adastra
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Joined on 04-18-2006
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Sacramento
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Posts 1,413
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Here is a relevant essay by Robert
Augustus Masters - “Forgiveness: Sacred Closure,” from his book
Divine Dynamite: Entering Awakening's Heartland, posted here with his
permission.
Fun fact: I wrote the index for
the new edition of Divine Dynamite, which will be out shortly. Index
writing is a new line of work I'm exploring lately; in 2024 I will be
doing the index for a new edition of Darkness Shining Wild (also by
Robert), and in the near future I'll be working on the index of a
book for Integral Books. I'm looking for additional assignments; I
prefer payment in money but I am willing to work for trade in some
cases.
FORGIVENESS: SACRED CLOSURE
Forgiveness
is the greatest weapon.
— Neem Karoli Baba
Forgiveness
is the heart’s pardon. Sacred closure.
To
forgive doesn’t mean to excuse or condone, but rather to cease
dehumanizing and excluding from our heart our offending other or
others.
When
we forgive, we neither bypass nor gloss over injury, but instead
embrace and embody a perspective in which injury is not given the
power to obscure or diminish our compassion.
Although
forgiveness might seem to some to be an act of acquiescence or
weakness, it is actually an act of great power, for it not
only retrieves us from the past, where we’re emotionally bound to
those whom we won’t forgive, but also from the future — where
we’re similarly bound — thereby bringing us present, undividedly
and wholeheartedly present.
Forgiveness
is a radical act of love not only for the offending other, but also
for oneself. In forgiving someone, we are, in so many words, telling
that person, “I no longer am interested or invested in having
anything damaging happen to you. No longer am I going to turn the
hurt you have done me into an excuse to dehumanize or violate you.
Although I may never again have or make contact with you, no longer
will I keep you out of my heart, however difficult that might be.”
Thus
do we disconnect in order to connect at a deeper level.
We
then stop feeding our resentment, realizing as we do so that it was
actually feeding on us, consuming our energy and
attention. Our appetite for vengeance naturally shrinks, like any
other shadow, in the light of our forgiveness. Then the courtrooms of
our mind are not so readily populated by us — wanting to be right
no longer so easily recruits and centers us. We may still get angry,
but will be far less likely to infuse it with ill-will or hatred, or
let it transmute into aggression. Caring for the other becomes more
important than getting even, regardless of the consequences that may
be deemed fitting for whatever harm may have been done.
“Love
your enemies.” This may be the most practical (and
marginalized) of all of the teachings of Jesus. Rooted as it is in
our capacity to forgive, it cuts through the rigidly dualistic “I”
versus “you” or “us” versus “them” mentality that so
easily infects and aberrates us. Loving — not necessarily liking,
but loving — our enemies is a kind of radical sanity, for in loving
them, in wholeheartedly wishing for their freedom from delusion, we
are not only ceasing to demonize them, but are also aligning
ourselves with their healing. Their healing — our healing.
If
our enemies were to find and embody their innate happiness, if they
were freed from their suffering, if they were to heal, then they
would no longer be motivated or driven to harm us. Is there a more
potent and user-friendly catalyst for disarmament than forgiveness?
Implicit
in the practice of forgiveness is the willingness to place ourselves
— and not just intellectually! — in our offending others’ shoes
and skin, to the point where they are no longer “other,” but
rather only us in our less appealing facets.
Forgiveness
does not depend upon what the offending other does.
That
is, we don’t have to wait for that person to make amends. (And, at
the same time, it is essential to realize that we do not have to
forgive until we are truly ready to do so — to forgive prematurely
is of no more use than putting off the forgiveness of which we are
capable.) Sometimes we may be so righteously caught up in waiting for
and expecting our offending others to make amends or to say that
they’re sorry, that we don’t notice we are being held hostage by
our expectations of them.
If
I refuse to forgive you until you “deserve” it, then I am simply
punishing you, keeping myself negatively bound to you, or to
the storyline with which I associate you.
If
I won’t forgive you until you have “earned” it, then I am
keeping myself, however subtly, a victim of what you’ve done to me.
And, if I am getting something out of staying in my “wounded”
role — such as having a “valid” reason for not taking more
responsibility for where I’m at in my life — I am likely going to
continue to postpone forgiving you.
In
the process of forgiving, we may have to, at least some of the time,
reframe the harm-doing we have suffered. Perhaps the pain inflicted
on us by our offending others has actually been of genuine benefit to
us; perhaps we needed to be hurt, disappointed, betrayed, or left;
perhaps we needed to learn something that could not be learned
without being treated as we were treated by our offending others.
This, of course, does not mean that their actions should
therefore be condoned or praised, but that they be viewed from a
perspective that’s not rooted in an eye-for-an-eye morality.
Then
we can clearly recognize such harm-doing as part of us. What I
condemn in you also exists in me (and in everyone else), and there’s
no way that it’s going to be healed if I persist in treating it as
something alien to me.
None
of this is to say that forgiveness is an easy practice. For example,
the path to forgiveness may initially be — and may need to
be — paved with hatred. We may need to feel and fully express our
hate for another before we can even approach forgiving that person
(as is often the case with those who have been raped). This, however,
doesn’t mean that we have to literally act out, or even share, such
dark feeling with our offending other or others. If we can give our
hate sufficiently free rein and voice, and just the space to be,
in a safe environment — like that of good psychotherapy — we’re
not only going to feel, through our rage-releasing, a much needed
sense of empowerment, but we’re also bound to get to what underlies
our hate, so that we can fully feel our hurt and thereby move
through it.
And
at the heart of that hurt is not more hurt, but a love that cannot
help but forgive.
This
love is self-radiant, effortlessly ego-transcending, simultaneously
innocent and wise. It forgives us our trespasses, our forgettings of
the Sacred, our stupidities large and small, and it does so
instantaneously. It does not make a problem out of our mistakes. When
we allow ourselves to house — and ultimately to be — such love,
we do not see errors, but only incarnation’s fleshdance in sacred
transparency. Which is but the shortest of steps to remembering with
our whole being What-Matters-Most.
Sometimes
the process of forgiveness may seem to break our heart, but it is
only the armoring around our heart that breaks. Or melts. Forgiveness
brings us in out of the cold, potently reminding us of who we really
are.
When
we choose to forgive, we are entering the morality of the Divine. In
choosing to forgive, we deepen our intimacy with the Beloved.
Forgiveness
is not only the essence of true kindness, but also an act of genuine
power.
May
we all embody it.
I am seeking meaningful work. bio: http://aqalicious.gaia.com/ I spend most of my "forum time" these days on The Integral Pod: http://pods.gaia.com/ii/ "You've never seen everything." - Bruce Cockburn
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