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Unhealthy Second Tier and other 2nd Tier questions
Last post 08-05-2022, 11:46 AM by Lizzie. 53 replies.
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02-27-2022, 3:36 PM |
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guydavis
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Joined on 06-19-2022
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Asheville, NC
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Unhealthy Second Tier and other 2nd Tier questions
I've been wondering what unhealthy Teal/Turqoise/Indigo look like. Is it possible to move to 2nd tier and be able to see first tier and then become fundamental in your assertions that anyone at green should be able to see the same things you see at 2nd tier? Also, is there any material online or in Ken's books that describe the differences between the 3 colors in 2nd tier? My current understanding is that once you reach 2nd tier (at least cognitively) then you can recognize the first tier stages however to be able to fluidly and naturally move among those stages might not emerge until Indigo. Of course I'm not taking all of the lines of development into account here so I imagine that the interpersonal line would have to be at Indigo in order to interact with others in that fluid way. Thanks so much.
Guy Davis [email protected]http://www.dancelovers.com
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02-27-2022, 4:40 PM |
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adastra
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Re: Unhealthy Second Tier and other 2nd Tier questions
By a groovy coincidence, Liz/Tamgoddess just started a thread on this subject in IIzaadz:
The Turquoise Shadow - Do You Have It?
You may be interested in perusing that. She refers to my recent
conference call with Ken Wilber in which I asked that question; I'll
jump into the thread discussion I linked to above once I get a chance.
You may have already seen this, but there is a great introductory document by Ken on the Altitude colors, available here
(among other places). I'm guessing that the upcoming release of a
vastly updated (400 more pages!) Transformations of Consciousness will
provide more details on the color scheme.
Note that there are only two colors in second-teir - teal and turquoise
- with indigo being part of what he considers "third tier" in that
particular mapping scheme. "Indigo" actually stands for "all the
stages beyond turquoise" none of which have been developed by very many
people so far - thus the amount of information on those rare stages is
quite limited at the present time.
spiral out,
arthur
I am seeking meaningful work.
bio: http://aqalicious.gaia.com/
I spend most of my "forum time" these days on The Integral Pod: http://pods.gaia.com/ii/
"You've never seen everything." - Bruce Cockburn
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02-27-2022, 9:34 PM |
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pattye
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Joined on 08-28-2022
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Ocala, Florida
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Re: Unhealthy Second Tier and other 2nd Tier questions
Dear Guy: I assume you must know that the other half of Wilber/Combs lives/and/or teaches in Ashville. What a beautiful place.
And author, I am really interested in Guy's question and your call with Ken. I don't catch up on those since I get the tapes in the mail and never know what I will get.After I find out, I go back and listen to what I miss. It is hard to wait but there is so much else to do, that I still never catch up. I will be reading the pieces that you suggested. This is something that I am very interested in And wondered about.
Thanks to you both Pattye
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02-27-2022, 9:58 PM |
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pattye
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Joined on 08-28-2022
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Ocala, Florida
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Re: Unhealthy Second Tier and other 2nd Tier questions
I read the thread authur. OH MY GOD!!! I will join. You won. However, I have one little problem with you people. "Don't get out too far in front of the parade or you will not hear the music. Being patient with those who have not found their voice is part of Turquoise. and yet we need both kinds. On the Myers/Briggs, I am a
INFP That P is a person who always needs a little more information. So along with being the other three, I can just bet what most of you guys are. I know I am pretty wonderful until I get around people like you and then I have to fight to not feel like a fraud and lose my voice and start stuttering a bit. I hang in there and eventually make a connection so I figure you are my best teachers. I not sure if I am readly to say this to a whole group cause there you all are. Great Thread. Super Thread. I will go back. Time and Courage. We need both kinds. Hope you come back here and keep checking. You do have all the info. Brainiac. Love Pattye
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02-28-2022, 12:52 AM |
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ralphweidner
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Joined on 06-18-2022
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portland, or
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Re: Unhealthy Second Tier and other 2nd Tier questions
hi arthur,
i've looked at the thread--it's really refreshing to see all the positive feelings that have flowed from this one remark from ken
tamgoddess relayed ken's response to adastra's question: The shadow of Turquoise is an inability to see one's own greatness.
i suspect that, down deep, our biggest complaint is that he's not more available than he already is--like, the rest will just have to wait a couple more months or so to hear the conversation you and ken had, in order to get the wonderful context for that quote.
in the mean time, i'm hung up on the word 'inability'. i've just listened to the latest segment of fred kofman's talk at ISC2, in which he looks at the defect of running away in pretended innocence from our response ability. to the extent we don't realize we are doing this, it is a shadow, and if it becomes ingrained, response ability will atrophy into 'inability' to respond, whether to see our potential greatness, or just about anything else, for that matter.
but what do you think ken had in mind?
incidentally, i think ALL of you posting on that thread are great, although possibly in ways you haven't yet acknowledged.
to the greatness of turquoise!
ralph
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02-28-2022, 4:48 AM |
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jwcargile
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Coker, Alabama
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Re: Unhealthy Second Tier and other 2nd Tier questions
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02-28-2022, 10:51 AM |
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lindsey
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Boulder
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Re: Unhealthy Second Tier and other 2nd Tier questions
I certainly can’t answer for II, and I doubt you will get any
kind of answer on such internal affairs; this is not really a public matter. I
can say that I personally don’t understand why this has happened, though I don’t
think it was done out of ill will or a place of shadow. None of us really have
enough information to decide if such a decision was second tier or not. Everyone at II is saddened by this, and I must
say I was a bit angry and heartbroken with the news. There are times when
people don’t fit in a position anymore or their position dissolves over time, I
don’t know if that is the case here, but I am just amazed by Nomali’s ability
to accept this news with as much grace and integrity as she did. Maybe when
people are as sweet and humble as Rollie and Nomali, you get stepped on
sometimes. This is why a part of me
feels like she was too good for II, she out grew it in some profound way, now with
the strength, integrity, and ability to create so much beauty in the world. Whether
or not it was a mistake or just executed with traditional II awkwardness, it is
done and it will be unclear for a long time whether it was for the better or
worse… My prediction is worse for II, but better for Nomali, and that makes me
happy for Nomz!
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02-28-2022, 3:55 PM |
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randomturtle
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Re: Unhealthy Second Tier and other 2nd Tier questions
Unhealthy second tier comes from the lingering ego, combined with the general idea that no one is perfect. Ego defense doesn't fall away until at least Indigo or perhaps Violet or maybe higher, from what I understand. And as long as you're still trying to defend your self (your ideas, your lifestyle, your work, etc.) you're going to have unhealthy action.
Note that this relates to the development of the emotional line, not the cognitive line. My experience leads me to believe that there are many people in II and outside, who are well into the third tier cognitively, but on an emotional scale, they are probably only up to Green, Teal, or Turquoise. And there is still tons of unhealthy stuff at those stages :-)
How do you know what unhealthy stuff at second and third tier looks like? It's looks pretty much the same as unhealthy stuff in the first tier - depression, anger, burnout, stress, physical illness, and general apathetic malaise. The symptoms are the same no matter where you are, it's only the underlying reasons that are different. Someone cognitively at second or third tier might be stressed out (and therefore wind up stressing others out) when they can't get a job in a field where they can experience a broad range of viewpoints, and learn from them, or when their Integral book that they've spent years working on is rejected by all the publishers. That stress might cause them to become angry and lash out at those close to them, or they may withdraw and become depressed. If they happen to have been trained in meditation or some other form of state/consciousness control, they will probably be more able to counteract the effects of the stress. And, obviously, some training and practice in shadow processing, Byron Katie's inquiry, NLP, or Cognitive Behavior Therapy, will help emmensely too, in dealing with the stress, and in preventing stress in the first place.
And on that note, I'm going to go do a bit of state exploration myself, to deal with some stress I caused myself this afternoon during a little discussion with my family (stuck somewhere between Blue and Green, and not at all supportive of my latest lifestyle and ideas...)
Peace, Love, and Bicycles, Turtle
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02-28-2022, 8:36 PM |
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Blikewater
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Joined on 10-17-2022
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Re: Unhealthy Second Tier and other 2nd Tier questions
It seems to me that the lack of recognition towards Don Beck (Spiral Dynamics) in Kens latest book and this letter from Don Beck would be considered unhealthy itersubjectivity between the two. "...Finally, and I truly believe what I'm about to suggest:
It is time that we all became more
accountable. It is simply not enough, if anyone claims to exist within
the 7th Level system or even so-called "Second Tier," to live off of
the hard work and fruits of others without paying back in financial
terms or in participating in the further development of the way of
thinking.
You must pardon my personal reference, but if
I had not at a difficult time in my life been the only person to help
Clare W. Graves financially, or to support him emotionally and, most
certainly, to create opportunities for him to extend his own life and
influence, I dare say his name would only be an obscure footnote in an
academic study now. And, the entire I-I movement would have seriously
lacked what gave it cohesion, a language the people continue to use,
and practical experiences and case-studies that are beginning to
resonate. You recall it was Ken Wilber, in his book A Theory of
Everything, that called it "the theory that explains everything," as
the entire book is based on what he called "The Amazing Spiral."
In all cases the intellectual integrity of
this point of view, the original Graves perspectives, and the
modification and extensions into Spiral Dynamics Integral will
hence-forth need to be respected and not distorted for self-gain. I do
not accept that one can attempt to escape accountability by exploiting
the fruits of thirty years of work by way of bypassing the SD and SDi
depictions while claiming one is "going back to Graves" instead. (Amazing how folks who do so continue to use SD/SDi language and concepts that Graves never used.)
Finally, I do not accept the claim that the
material is in the public domain. Those who advance this justification
are only showing how Orange sleaze operates, by ignoring their
responsibility to contribute to the long and difficult development of
the source code along with a myriad of applications in difficult places
around the world.
If we are not willing to walk the ethical talk, then we are simply not in a position to teach these concepts to other people.
I know everybody has limits, time conflicts, and other responsibilities, but be advised that 2022 is going to be the year of accountability.
The seriousness of the challenges and threats
that face ALL of us require that we elevate ourselves from political
games, economic opportunism, and careless hijacking of what are
authentic parts of a seamless and truly integral package. If we
ourselves cannot do this we have nothing to offer anybody else. Don" However, is this a matter of unhealthy 2nd tier+ or unhealthy 1st tier traits emerging? I know that for about 16 sundays out of the NFL year there is some seriouse unhealthy RED comming out of my home! But come Monday the sky is clear. One more thought. The message of 'The Secret,' using a connection with higher consciousness to obtain material possesions, nasty. I wrote more about it here. http://embracetheuniverse.zaadz.com/blog namaste, B.
There is no individual possession, only universal belonging.
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02-28-2022, 9:22 PM |
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jikishin
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Joined on 11-19-2022
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Santa Fe
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Posts 119
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Re: Unhealthy Second Tier and other 2nd Tier questions
B.,
In keeping with Don's call for accountability and adequate attention to source code, I for one would expect, that when a letter/exerpt is posted that context be noted, as in, to whom it was addressed, when, in response to...
Otherwise, we are left with a case of the media demonstrating the message via negativa.
Let it begin here.
kcd
'takes all kinds.
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03-01-2022, 4:51 AM |
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jwcargile
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Joined on 08-14-2022
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Coker, Alabama
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Re: Unhealthy Second Tier and other 2nd Tier questions
May I ask where Don Beck posted this?
JC 33° 13' N 87° 37' W
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03-01-2022, 6:36 AM |
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Blikewater
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Joined on 10-17-2022
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Middle of America
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Re: Unhealthy Second Tier and other 2nd Tier questions
No problem, here is the entire email sent to me just prior to the event.
From the Clash to the Confluence of Civilizations:
Cartography for the 21st Century
Colleagues and Friends,
Plans for the annual Washington (DC) Macro*Memetics Summit next week are taking final shape. The theme will deal with how clashes in civilizations, as defined by Samuel Huntington,
can be transformed into the confluence of civilizations. How, in short,
the competitive and conflict-driven nature of memetic codes can,
instead, become connecting bands.
We are dealing here with deep conflict at the
core, in the tectonic, fractal-like 'value system' plates, rather than
attempts that focus only on surface level manifestations of these vast
differences.
One of the sub-themes that we will develop is
to track how civilization ‘heaps' form in the first place; what the
Life Conditions are that spark them; what the human dynamics, both
individual and group, are that create and sustain them; and what is it
that makes the boundaries rigid where ‘us vs. them’ polarization
dominate the scene. Then, of course, stigmas, stereotypes, and the
tendency to see in the other the face of the enemy – demonizing –
prevails in group relationships.
And then we will use state-of-the-art
theoretical formulations buffeted by real world experiences in some of
the most difficult places on the planewhere clashes are historic and
violent – such as South Africa, the Middle East, in Southeast Asia and
even in this country. This rich experience is not for the faint-hearted
or those who are already locked in to any Flatlander ideology.
The experience will be enriched by a series of
world class presenters who are known for their insights and especially
their backgrounds in confronting these issues in harm’s way. This list
includes George Anne Geyer, award-winning foreign correspondent; John Petersen,
President of The Arlington Institute, who is one of our best known
futurists and designer of a measuring technology that generates a
global vital signs monitor and early surprise indicator; Dr. Tom Barnett, author and formerly of the US Naval War College who, in his book The Pentagon's New Map, has been crafting a balanced approach for dealing with the developmental gaps to reduce levels of violence; and Dr. Akbar Ahmed,
a leading global authority on Islamic religious and ethical systems and
expert on how more moderate positions can be facilitated.
The teaching/learning sequences will move from some simulation, to a Margaret Mead-inspired sapient circle,
to the design of a full-court press strategy that will align the
memetic codes up and down the spiral with a series of imaginative tools
and initiatives. Many of these were used successfully in the South
Africa and are now being up-dated for an application in the troubled
Middle East.
In fact, the Center for Human Emergence-Middle
East team will attend our Summit, as we are preparing to return to
Israel-Palestine on January 16. You will witness, on a first-hand
basis, the planning that the team is doing and what we hope to
accomplish. As you well know, this initiative is being funded by John
Smith, owner of Hearthstone Homes in Omaha.
The entire Washington Summit is funded in part by John Mackey, chairman of the board of Whole Foods Market.
We will present our traditional SDi Level One certification program on January 8, 9, and 10. I will be working once again with Cherie Beck in this program. Mike Jay, well known globally as a business coach and change agent, will work with me in the SDi Level Two Macro*Memetics Washington Summit January 11, 12, and 13.
As many of you know, one of our earlier
Macro*Memetics summits dealt with a scenario regarding the future of
Cuba that is becoming more and more relevant now given the illness of
Castro. I don't know of any other event that provides you the
opportunity to use the insights and tools from the Graves conceptual
system, the Spiral Dynamics Integral extension,
and anything within the Integral Institute world. Those who keep
asking for practical applications should leave no stone unturned in
learning how to apply such a powerful model in areas that are impacting
our own survival as a country and planet.
________________________________ From the Clash to the Confluence of Civilizations: Cartography for the 21st Century Washington, DC January 8-13, 2022
For more information and to register now, click here. _________________________________
Finally, and I truly believe what I'm about to suggest:
It is time that we all became more
accountable. It is simply not enough, if anyone claims to exist within
the 7th Level system or even so-called "Second Tier," to live off of
the hard work and fruits of others without paying back in financial
terms or in participating in the further development of the way of
thinking.
You must pardon my personal reference, but if
I had not at a difficult time in my life been the only person to help
Clare W. Graves financially, or to support him emotionally and, most
certainly, to create opportunities for him to extend his own life and
influence, I dare say his name would only be an obscure footnote in an
academic study now. And, the entire I-I movement would have seriously
lacked what gave it cohesion, a language the people continue to use,
and practical experiences and case-studies that are beginning to
resonate. You recall it was Ken Wilber, in his book A Theory of
Everything, that called it "the theory that explains everything," as
the entire book is based on what he called "The Amazing Spiral."
In all cases the intellectual integrity of
this point of view, the original Graves perspectives, and the
modification and extensions into Spiral Dynamics Integral will
hence-forth need to be respected and not distorted for self-gain. I do
not accept that one can attempt to escape accountability by exploiting
the fruits of thirty years of work by way of bypassing the SD and SDi
depictions while claiming one is "going back to Graves" instead. (Amazing how folks who do so continue to use SD/SDi language and concepts that Graves never used.)
Finally, I do not accept the claim that the
material is in the public domain. Those who advance this justification
are only showing how Orange sleaze operates, by ignoring their
responsibility to contribute to the long and difficult development of
the source code along with a myriad of applications in difficult places
around the world.
If we are not willing to walk the ethical talk, then we are simply not in a position to teach these concepts to other people.
I know everybody has limits, time conflicts, and other responsibilities, but be advised that 2022 is going to be the year of accountability.
The seriousness of the challenges and threats
that face ALL of us require that we elevate ourselves from political
games, economic opportunism, and careless hijacking of what are
authentic parts of a seamless and truly integral package. If we
ourselves cannot do this we have nothing to offer anybody else.
Don
__________________________________________________________
The Spiral Dynamics Group
Don Edward Beck, Ph.D Co-founder, National Values Center, Denton, TX. Founder/CEO, The Spiral Dynamics Group, Inc. Founder/President, Global Center for Human Emergence. Faculty, Adizes Graduate School, Santa Barbara. 940.383.1209 / 940.300.6363
Email: [email protected] General SDi Inquiries: [email protected] Visit us on the Web: www.spiraldynamics.net
There is no individual possession, only universal belonging.
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03-01-2022, 11:30 AM |
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randomturtle
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Joined on 06-19-2022
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Somerville, Massachusetts, USA
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Posts 253
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Points 4,660
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Re: Unhealthy Second Tier and other 2nd Tier questions
My guess is that Don Beck's shadowy letter here is coming from Yellow/Teal, where your motivation is to act on your newfound understanding of the structures of life. Because your new world-centric view is, well world-centric, your main goal in life is to save the world. And your main value is that the way to do that is to use this structure that you've discovered as a guidebook or map. And when you see someone else coming along who wants to change that structure - literally rewrite your guidebook and map - your hackles raise, your defenses will go up, and your intellect will step back so that your protective anger can take the lead. Obviously, if you've made it to second tier, your anger will look a whole lot different than it might at Red, Purple/Magenta, or Blue/Amber. At second tier, your anger will be framed in a highly elegant way, and appear to many people to be quite reasonable. But you can tell that it's unhealthy shadow anger because it tries to force reality to be something it isn't. (Remember, when you argue with reality, you always lose.)
However, not being Don Beck himself, I can't possibly know exactly what his motives were for writing that letter, so it's impossible to tell if it truly is shadow anger seeping out, or if it's just some elaborate ploy to make us think that he's angry :-)
Peace, Love, and Bicycles, Turtle
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03-01-2022, 12:33 PM |
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Blikewater
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Joined on 10-17-2022
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Middle of America
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Posts 36
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Points 735
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Re: Unhealthy Second Tier and other 2nd Tier questions
It probably has something to do with the footnotes beginning
in Chapter 4 of Integral Spirituality, and other discussions they had prior.
Personally I feel Ken and Don should have kept this amongst themselves and
found a way to reconcile their differences. Integral heads are a rarity, but I
guess this shows how the Ego lurks at every level.
Anyway, I am sure nobody 2nd tier is interested in Integral Drama.
Namaste, B.
There is no individual possession, only universal belonging.
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03-01-2022, 12:39 PM |
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Blikewater
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Joined on 10-17-2022
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Middle of America
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Posts 36
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Points 735
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Re: Unhealthy Second Tier and other 2nd Tier questions
Oh yeah,
Thanks Turtle for the very well recieved posts.
B.
There is no individual possession, only universal belonging.
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