It would seem to me that Don is not 3rd Tier

actually I am no expert here and don't have the full professional grasp of every issue or anything but I would for sure take this further and just say that I don't think Don Beck is really hitting even turqouise by I-I standards...  And I thank Ken Wilber for standing up as he needed to, out of duty, to say so... All I can say think feel once more is thank god for Ken Wilber, thank god for Ken Wilber....  as the clearest voice for sanity and truth that I have ever heard... (actually pre-ken wilber there is no way I could have imagined the Clarity he has brought and keeps on bringing)..
(and  to equate K.W. with orange sleaze has got to be the most ridiculous accusation I have heard yet..)

also really liked what i read about "the secret" on "B's" Zaadz home page...

zoiks! Zaadz is down! I can't get on!  I wanted to read the thread on the shadow of Turquoise.  So you say that KW stated that Turquoise's shadow is it's inability to recognize itself?  I am sooo curious as to how that is an artifact of 2nd tier thinking and not just a magenta or red shadow in disguise.  Can anyone relate the 2nd tier reasoning?

For example MGM could be the shadow of Green, and is an actual artifact of Green level thinking.  Flatland could be the shadow of Orange, and is an actual artifact of Orange thinking.  I am curious as to how the Turquoise level of thinking produces it's shadow of it's inability to recognize itself.

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myspace.com/zentaimusic

When I first heard about Ken's comment about the shadow at Turquoise being a failure to see the greatness of the self, I was a little surprised, and thought that maybe Ken was trying to win over certain folks by appealing to their egos.  I was a bit annoyed that he seemed to be acting like Turquiose folks were somehow above getting stuck in a "mean meme".

But this morning I realized how it's completely true.  And, in fact, all shadow, at all levels, is really just an inability to realize one's greatness - or the extent that one is always ultimately good, true, and beautiful.  

On my blog, I have a tag that I end up using more often than not for my entries: "Get out of your own way".  Shadows, a.k.a. destructive emotions, like anger, fear, guilt, shame, loneliness, depression, etc., are what we put in our own way, intentionally or not, to prevent us from being good, true, and beautiful.  Shadows are the source of suffering, for ourselves and our world.  Once we get them out in the open, we can see who we really are, loving, compassionate, honest, creative, amazing people, and act appropriately :-)

Peace, Love, and Bicycles
-Turtle

Dear Turtle:  Yes.  I have had a Post I have wanted to write here.  No time.  Not much today.   Jung said we need to remember that there is pure Gold under the shadow.  And his followers, two Episcopalian Priests, John Sandford and Robert Johnson wrote very clear books about that.  However, their books are dotted with

"The Myth of the Given and Archtypes".  The stories still have a lot of examples of looking at the Shadow and other gifts that Jung left.  An example would be the feminine, usually the woman who is becoming dowdy and too masculine may need to visit Aphrodite the godess of Beauty.  She cannot live with her (as the extreme we are going today)  or Aphrodite will kill her.  And so as she becomes aware of her

Beauty (greatness), she can easily go to far.  As I see this we are both right and KW does not have enough time to elaborate on so many things. 

There are also many scholarly books written about all this but I recomend the modern Jungians, esp. Johnson and Sandford connected more with the spirituality

that we can understand  quicklly.  I am going to write more, hopefully. I have not addressed everything you said and my spelling is going to be horrible, I know.        

Later Pattye

 

wmersy, thanks.

... also, Don doesn't even recognize that 3rd tier exists.  But it is also my opinion that 3rd tier should not be the center of our focus, and Don supports the following whole heartedly:

  'Sub optimal: A complex adaptive systems does not have to be perfect in order for it to thrive within its environment. It only has to be slightly better than its competitors and any energy used on being better than that is wasted energy...'
http://www.trojanmice.com/articles/complexadaptivesystems.htm

   It is my opinion that the Shadow of turquoise is  "searching for affirmation in the 'knowing' that one is turquoise, and the quest for furthering ones own development to 3rd tier." which to me does not lend itself to the effectiveness of our roles as agents in the global community.  I fear that too much focus on 2nd & 3rd tier overlooks the importance 2nd tier agency is to a community capable of it's own destruction. 
  From what I have witnessed there seems to be more talk on the 'nitty gritty' of Integral Theory than what, or even better, how it should be applied to the real world.  Maybe I am overlooking something, but this is what I have seen.
Namaste, B.
 

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There is no individual possession, only universal belonging.

I intend to reply more fully on this thread (after I get through the other posts), but Bikewater - you pointed out a few things that I am strongly resonating with these days.   Yes, I remain very fond of Don and his work and intentions, and am sad to see SD/SDi being pushed aside (or at least, apparently so). 

What I'm reading in these posts so far - is that this 'frothy edge' of Integral - is really fucking messy, isn't it?  I'm sensing that there are some critical structural aspects of Integral that we need to work through.  My contributions (however sparingly), will focus on the 'topology' of the integral language ...(er, more later).

In the meantime, I resonate with your 16 NFL Sundays and the unhealthy RED!!   I've mentioned this to Don a few times, that MY RED really shows up during the NHL playoffs - which get under way tonight here with the Sens and Pens.   Interestingly, the big market push is "Get into the RED ZONE" (the Sens key colour being Red, that is!).   I intend to dive fully and completely into the RED over these next weeks - be it healthy or unhealthy - I don't know.  What I DO know - is that anyone who comes close to supporting Pittsburgh would do themselves well to keep their distance from me!!

Go Sens Go!
Brian.

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BE

Hmmm.... OS wars?  SD or 'AQAL'?  So what's going on here?  ....

You know, the only thing I can take time to comment on at this point, - and this is NOT a criticism of any particular model we've been working with, - but I think there is a BIG HOLE in this whole frothing edge.

(Yes, thanks Sean EH!, I've actually now found time to dig more deeply in Almaas' Diamond Approach -and the Theory of Holes).  (er...now that I understand - or 'feel' - what he's talking about).

The BIG HOLE appears to be the essential, timeless, qualities that NEED TO SHOW UP at any level, along any line, and ultimately determine the 'state' of our being (1st, 2nd, or 3rd Tier).  In Almass' terms - the Hole is the lack of Essence - things like love, compassion, will, strength.   I'm putting myself on the stand here as well - but doesn't it seem that without recognizing these qualitative aspects of being - or more importantly - ensuring their Essence is present and felt, and not abandoned or repressed - is really the hallmark of what constitutes 'healthiness' at any level?  Should our inner Essence not take priority in any situation?

My own recurring trap is I recognize how easy it is for the ol' nogger to get wrapped up in the language and the topology of the AQAL map - at the expense of letting this Essence shine through.  It has become so much of our parlance to be uttering quadrants, lines, levels, states, and types, and colours, and tiers, and tears, etc.... that these map-fixations have created a trap for us that we need to get ourselves untangled from their often convoluted and complex inter-relationships.

Bring back the Rhizome!!?

Cheers anyway, Brian. :-)

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BE

Hi Everyone:

I have been reading along and thought I would jump in here. Not with any answers but with some questions I have been pondering as I continue to take up the challenge of applying Ken's Integral Theory in my life and work.

I have also wondered aloud, to Ken on conference calls and at I-I seminars, what unhealthy 2nd Tier looks like. I have yet to "pin him down" on that question, which has left me wondering if his lack of a concrete answer is in fact an answer, if not "the" answer. I understand that Ken's quote about Turquoise not recognizing its own greatness may now be seen as an answer, but still I am unsatisfied.

As such, I went back to my understanding of lines of development and the fact that Ken has often reported that there are perhaps 2 dozen lines of development. Ken talks about a center of gravity and Kosmic Addresses at a theoretical level as well, to help us unpack all the challenges of language and co-constructed realities etc.

Is the question, "What does pathological 2nd Tier look like?" one that can be answered in a way that satisfies the questioner? If we take an analogy, it may shed some light. For someone with a "blue center of gravity" who is a fundamental believer in their one personal ethnocentric God as the only real and true God. They will ask the question, "So, does God still love me if I choose to marry outside of my religion, and will God still accept my children into heaven if I have kids with this person from another religion." What is the answer to that question?

Perhaps, we might benefit from examining the level from which the question, "What is unhealthy second tier?" originates. Questions themselves are generated from a particular level of consciousness and, they may not be answerable in a language that the level of the questioner is capable or able to understand. I ask this of myself as I have also pondered the question, but have not spent enough time examining where my question comes from. I would love to hear people's thoughts.

Warmest regards, Tim

hi tim,

i think i'm somewhat in agreement with you. we won't be able to see whatever pathologies we might actually have picked up in getting to teal, say, until we're already going beyond teal, i would guess.

but, by the same token, in getting to teal we will achieve a better perspective for seeing and dealing with 1st tier pathologies. i also believe that, to the extent we are pursuing ILP, we will be less likely to pick up new pathologies.

warm regards to you,

ralph

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Hey Blike,

You seem to know what you're talking about. What is " Consciousness" ?

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Ciao,

Paul " Nappi" Suni

In one of my favourite responses to this question, Ken was asked at a seminar what the turquoise shadow would look like, and he said, "Watch me very closely."

;-)

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~Rollie @ ISC

rollie:

In one of my favourite responses to this question, Ken was asked at a seminar what the turquoise shadow would look like, and he said, "Watch me very closely."

;-)

hi rollie,

i have been watching him closely, as has the tamgoddess, for that matter, and i haven't been able to pick up anything i don't imagine he's already well aware of. of course, i can't expect to see anything my own shadows are obscuring (one possibility), nor anything above my own altitude (another, more preferred possibility).

but maybe i'm taking this quote too seriously. you would know better, since you were there. was he joking in a self-deprecating way? acknowledging that we don't yet know that much about turquoise shadows, because like the kosmic groove itself, we're just beginning to create them, and he, being the pioneer he is, is, inevitably, out there creating new shadows, even as he works to make that groove as healthy as possible?

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Hi Ralph,

Yes, it was self-depracating and quite funny.  On another occasion, Ken was asked what altitude he would put himself at, and what he saw next for himself in terms of development.  He was very modest about it, saying that he felt he had reached some fairly high stages, and that a lot of the personal work he was trying to do now was to circle back and look at re-incorporating parts that had split off, as they have in all of us. 

He clearly feels that shadow is one of the most crucial and often overlooked aspects of the spiritual journey, and that working with his own shadow, while trying to help in the healthy unfolding of various other levels, is of paramount importance....

rollie

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~Rollie @ ISC

Arthur/adastra says

Greetings, Multiplexians.  It was cool to have this thread popped back to the top, and to skim through it again - an interesting trip down memory lane for sure.  Was that post by Lindsey interesting foreshadowing or what?  lol 

There may be some people here who a)haven't heard the latest Tamgoddess/adastra news, and b)might be interested in hearing of it.  If both a & b apply to you, please click here. 

spiral on,
arthur

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Upgrade to ISC!
http://integralinstitute.org/public/static/multispirit.aspx
http://pods.gaia.com/ii

welcome news! i even like the thread you picked for your announcement--nothing like facing the worst right from the start and head on! you also couldn't have picked a better person to reply to, someone who's doing his best, i feel, to help keep this crazy, integral family of ours together.

blessings on you both,

ralph

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