What would a truly Integral and second tier perspective on climate change be?

It seems to me that pretty much everything out there is currently pretty first tier, very polarized, and not open to debate.

After hearing the IN dialogue with Michael Crichton on State of Fear, and then reading the book, I really identified with a lot of his arguments.  They certainly feel a lot more second tier than a lot of stuff out there.  Thats not to say I agreed with all his conclusions, but the general threads felt like they needed a fair consideration.

What are other peoples takes on climate change, from a genuinely second tier perspective?  What other material is there out there on it from a second tier position, is there any?

Blessings

Ewan

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www.ukinext.com

Ewan-

First off I think is a great idea for a topic!  Climate Change is difficult topic to discuss sometimes, as it touches on some deep emotions for a lot of people (me included). 

I do feel that in many ways whatever challenges a changing climate throws at us, we as a people will find technologies and methods to deal with it as it comes.

However, I also strongly feel that the issues that come up in discussing climate change; fuel economy, renewable energy, wildlife conservation, etc, are all issues that are important to discuss regardless of whether or not climate change is a direct result of our actions.  In my mind there's just no way around the fact that not only is our world driven by finite resources right now, but that we're consuming more of those resources as time goes by.  I personally think its never to early to start thinking about the future...

jason

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I'm thinkin' of something orange. Something orange. Give up? It's an orange.

Hi Ewan,

When the Integral University site is up I would highly recommend a PhD thesis posted in Barrett Brown's Integral Sustainability domain entitled "The Eye of the Storm: An Integral Perspective on Sustainable Development and Climate Change" by Christopher Reidy. This is an inspiring application of AQAL to one of our most challenging issues with lots of rich areas for discussion.

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Namaste,
Harv

"(The) Practice of love is always available- and expressive of your deepest truth- right now."
-David Deida

Hi Jason And Harv,

Jason

They are indeed all very pressing matters, and ones I contemplate a great deal.  The issues you mention are undenyably pressing, and I'm exciting by some of the more Integral approaches to these issues, have you read Natural Capitalism?

Sustainability has to be the way of the future, no doubt, however, I often see it lumped in with climate change, when sometimes they need to be seen as very seperate issues, does that make sense?

I try to stay as open to the issue, and evidence as possible, and currently I still feel quite ambiguous about the whole thing.  However, whether it is in fact a reality or not, I often feel like Climate Change can be used as a bit of self-righteous scare tactic.  I'm not so sure thats the most compassionate or honourable way to justify the drive toward sustainabilty.

Ultimately however, as Ken points out, the biggest constraint is a general disregard for interiors, and interior development.  Here's to some new youthfully Integral energy...!

 

Harv

Thanks for the heads up.  I look forward to getting my hands on that!  You have read it I presume?  A sneaky synopsis perhaps?

 

Blessings

Ewan

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www.ukinext.com

Hey Ewan,

A complete and fair synoposis would be difficult as it is a 500 plus page document, but I'll throw out a few of the ideas that I resonated with the caution that it's my interpretation of the work.

 I would differ with your perspective somewhat in that I view climate change as a very serious issue but also a touchstone issue- one that if addressed in an integral way would hold the key to moving towards sustainability across the board. I do, however, totally agree with your view that scare tactics are hugely counter productive and a lazy way to do politics ("Someday there will be a disaster and people will see that boomeritis greens have the answer" doesn't cut it). (For another critique of tradtional environmentalism that discusses climate change politics in a new way see the free PDF download "The Death of Environmentalism: Global warming in a Post-Environmental World." A Google serach will pull up the paper. Although not explicitly integral many integral ecology folks felt it contained second tier elements. The authors Michael Shellenberger and Ted Nordhaus are expanding it to a book due in a year or so.)

Chris Reidy's AQAL thesis deals with the issue in all its complexity and ambiguity and brings interiors into the discussion (as you note above). While dealing with a specifically Australian context I believe that many of his ideas would apply in other countries. He argues for a deliberative democratic process adressing the quadrants and levels. He would begin with meetings in civil society (to create publcity and impetus for for change and pressure on governent). These meetings would bring together experts from a variety of scientific disciplines and stakeholders (affected businesses and industries) to address science and  policy impacts ( LR) as well as including citizens and policy makers in the process. Individual citizen behavior would be addressed (UR). In the LL and UL competing values would be made explict through a series of discussions about desirable futures, feasibility and evlauting impacts. Solutions would be designed to appeal to various levels- some regulation for tradtionals, market approaches for moderns, and participatory dialogue for postmodern-greens. Traditionals would be in sync with government leadership, moderns with investment opportunity and developing new technology and postmodern greens with environmental ethics. He also has developed proposed safeguards so that citizen members are not overwhelmed by experts and stakeholders.

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Namaste,
Harv

"(The) Practice of love is always available- and expressive of your deepest truth- right now."
-David Deida

Hbishop, thanks for that informative response!

I really like the idea of aproaching the dangers of climate change by appealing to everyone's good side, rather than triggering their fight or flight response, since rationality flies out the window when that happens. No one wants to see the planet fried (well, almost no one). So it's a good starting point, I think.

If we can approach people at their level, and with a positive, solution oriented request, they are likely to be cooperative. And I see that this is what you say Chris Reidy is proposing. Good stuff!

I understand that some big corporations are slowly starting to get the idea here. I think British Petroleum (BP) is moving in a more integral direction, and branching out into sustainable energy business, including solar (I've got one of their solar panels!). So that may be a good model, even if imperfect, to use with the Orange level folks.

Peace, Love, and Bicycles,
Turtle

Hi Turtle,

Many thanks for the kind words.

I'm with you. Meeting people where they are is essential. I have found in applying integral approaches in the classroom that students tend to relax when the strengths of their basic worldview are honored and in many cases they are then more open to other perspectives.

BP is great example of something that can appeal to orange. According to what I read in "It's Alive" The Coming Convergence of Information, Biology and Business" by Christopher Meyer and Stan Davis BP projected reducing greenhouse emissions and meeting Kyoto treaty standards within 5 years, but actually achieved those goals in two years all the while remaining the second most profitable oil company in the world. And they did it not with a big massive plan, but by soliciting lots of small carbon reduction ideas from employees!

I've been very excited by the ongoing work of I-I's Barrett Brown (this month's featured teacher)developing level appropriate messages about sustainability along with other skillful means and eagerly await that material and more being widely available with the coming launch of IU. On a related note Barrett and Sean Haregns mentioned at this spring's I-WISE seminar that Al Gore (a fan of "The Marriage of Sense and Soul") had requested material on the integral approach to ecology and sustainability so more signs of hope along with the success of "An Inconveient Truth."

Here's to staying out of the frying pan!

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Namaste,
Harv

"(The) Practice of love is always available- and expressive of your deepest truth- right now."
-David Deida

Hi all,

I am glad to see serious discussion regarding climate change. I have been very perplexed by the issue. From reading I get the idea that we are moving into the frying pan and that the in the last year, the folks that study this stuff are discovering more feedback loops than before that heat us up. In my local area over the last twenty years I have observed steadily increasing changes in snow pack, late freezes, early springs and aquifer drops. The forest above us is about 60% dead. “They” say it is climate related. Others say that it is just a long drought; others blame the environmentalists for resisting logging.

Bishop, Thanks for the info leads…I can’t wait to delve into Chris’s thesis. There is truly a lot of good stuff coming out of Australia regarding sustainability.

Turtle, I agree BP is moving in the right direction…I’ve got 6 BP 150s good panels.

Jason, I embrace your view that climate change or not, our civilization on this blue marble would be greatly enhanced and avoid a lot of otherwise present and future problems if we moved toward a more sustainable lifestyle. At a recent local government meeting concerning long range planning I brought up the issue of sustainability. The response was that; “sustainability is a liberal buzz word and was not for serious consideration.” I guess I have my work cut out for me.

Ewan, Great thread, thanks. I have not yet read “State of Fear.” I’ll put it on the list. I am currently reading “The Revenge of Gaia” by James Lovelock a pretty passionate plea from Orange that the sky is already falling. He states in his introduction that it’s already to late and billions will die and suggests a retreatist strategy to save civilization.

I feel very frustrated to wade through much data and interact with all the polarized first tier views, including MGM guilt and shame while awaiting a significant tipping point of second tier to shift perception and resultant effective action.

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With Love, John

"The real voyage of discovery lies not in seeking new landscapes but in having new eyes." Marcel Proust

Hi Harv,

This post has been haunting me all day. I know Barrett sent me Chris's thesis link when it came out but just couldn't remember...but ahh

To read Chris Reidy's Phd. thesis "The Eye of the Storm" go here

or if this link doesn't work...http://adt.lib.uts.edu.au/public/adt-NTSM20220603.101829/

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With Love, John

"The real voyage of discovery lies not in seeking new landscapes but in having new eyes." Marcel Proust

There is a climate cgange pod over at zaadz with a little debate, worth checking out...

http://pods.zaadz.com/climate_change

And as I was the one to mention the Crichton book, here is a link from the zaadz pod about it, posted by C4Chaos.

http://pods.zaadz.com/climate_change/discussions/view/27580

Much of Crichtons findings have been 'dismissed' and 'disproved' by the Scientific community, although from my own readings I didn't think that was totally fair.  It would appear that some of the slants on the research he uses in the book has been disputed by the actual researchers themselves (pretty conclusive!) but they obviously only attend to the objective scientific stuff.  The crux of Crichton's argument often rests more on social and cultural aspects, which arn't really mentioned.

Blessings

Ewan

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www.ukinext.com

Hi John,

It's great that there is pre-IU general interet access to "The Eye of the Storm." ! 

Coincidently Barrett's articles have just been posted on IU presents with some very interesting discussion threads on integral sustainability developing in the new IU Forum.

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Namaste,
Harv

"(The) Practice of love is always available- and expressive of your deepest truth- right now."
-David Deida

Hi Harv,
 

I read both of Barrett’s documents and quite enjoyed them. I love what I-I has done with levels in relation to giving them names that are identifiable. This was first introduced to me at the Integral Ecology and Sustainability Seminar in 2022.
 

There isn’t a lot of conversation going on on the I-U Presents forum. I find that in the integral groups or people that have populated the Integral Naked forums in the past the sustainability subject is a bit lacking in interest. What do you think?
 

Hi Ewan,
 

I have heard a bit of Crichton’s books summaries. I don’t doubt that the scientific communities discredited some of his stuff. I have heard that he postulated that we cannot know about climate change because of the weather’s chaotic behavior. While I recognize weather patterns are fractal, chaotic systems I do not think that the reduction of climate to the sum of weather is a correct assumption. While daily and weekly weather is chaotic, and inaccurately predictable, climate on the other hand is more predictable based on long term trends. The conservative right in the USA have been publicizing that climate change is a leftist liberal scam based on the unpredictability of weather (see Rush Linbaugh).

With regard to the social/cultural aspects: I guess the big question is; the scientific community makes observations in the RH quadrants and the data or facts are subject to LH quadrant interpretation. How do you, we and all of us interpret those facts or observations? Is there really a thing called climate change going on?
 

My feeling is that if some of the observers are correct there is a tipping point within the earth’s planetary climatic system and that once it is reached an accelerated climate shift will carry forth which will dramatically alter business as usual. It seems that it is the convincing or shift in the LL belief system, based on values, that needs to tip to be in preventative mode. Then again I may be deluded by my own beliefs in climate change. This seems to be a major issue and I would like to feel my brain, mind and heart are all on the same page.
 

Do any of you have a convincing paradigm for knowing if climate change is real or not?

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With Love, John

"The real voyage of discovery lies not in seeking new landscapes but in having new eyes." Marcel Proust

Here is a post from Annelene Decaux, a climate change scientist, and Integral follower.  She dosn't have a I-I membership, but really wanted to contribute this post to the discussion, so here it is!  Enjoy...

 

 

Here’s an all-quadrant exercise for you:

 

Set aside one or two hours, and do your own research on global warming on the internet (LR). If you want, and for starters, you may want to peruse some of the links below -- or come up with your own “research protocol”.

 

As you do so, I invite you to conduct 2 inquiries (UL):

-          Do you feel trustful, or distrustful, of the material? What makes you trust, or distrust it? (some LL elements)

-          What else do you feel as you read the material? (e.g. fear, sadness, boredom, excitement, inspiration?)

 

When you’re done, take a moment and ask yourself (UL):

-          What did you learn from the exercise? About the topic? (LR) About what/who you trust? (LL) About how you learn? (UL)

-          What actions will you take based on what you learnt? (UR)

 

 

***If you have only a few minutes to spare

 

Science’s Article on the scientific consensus on climate change

And this more recent one on the same topic

Pew Center’s Answers to Key Questions Raised by M. Crichton in State of Fear

More comments on State of Fear on the Real Climate blog

Woods Hole Research Center’s Beginner's guide to understanding the issue of global warming

Especially this article

And you may want to spend some more time with the excellent Pew Center website and the Real Climate blog.

 

***If you are more serious about this (these are only some of many links)

 

Climate science

NASA’s Goddard Institute for Space Studies

American Institute of Physics

MIT Center for Global Change Science

Hadley Center

 

Non-profit

Center for Clean Air Policy

The Climate Group

Resources for the Future

Pew Center

 

US Administration

US DOE

US EPA

US Climate Change Science Program

US Climate Change Technology Program

US Global Change Research Program

US Global Change Research Information Office

California Climate Change Policy and Programs -- find out what’s going on in your state!

 

Some other countries

UK Environmental Protection Agency

European Commission

Australia Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade

 

United Nations

UN Environmental Program Climate Graphics

United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change

Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change

Full text of the Rio Convention (1992, acknowledges global warming as a result of man-made emissions, entered into force in 1994, US signatory)

Full text of the Kyoto Protocol (1997, provides a framework for concerted action for the parties to the Convention, entered into force in 2022, US non-signatory)

 

Some other international bodies

International Energy Agency

World Resources Institute

International Institute for Sustainable Development

World Bank on climate change and on carbon policy

 

Industry

Edison Electric Institute

American Petroleum Institute

BP

 

Business and investors

Carbon Disclosure Project

World Business Council for Sustainable Development

International Chamber of Commerce

 

Energy R&D

Stanford Global Climate and Energy Project

International Energy Agency Greenhouse Gas R&D Program

Global Energy Strategy Technology Program

DOE Carbon Sequestration Program

 

CO2 emissions trading markets

Point Carbon

EU Emissions Trading Scheme

The Regional Greenhouse Gas Initiative (US North-Eastern States)

Chicago Climate Exchange

International Emissions Trading Association

GHG Protocol

CO2e

Climate Trust

World Bank’s Carbon Finance Unit

 

Climate news

Climate Ark

Tiempo

BBC Climate

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www.ukinext.com

Hi, John,

I agree, I had hoped to see more sustainbility discussion with the IU Presents papers (I was caught in time crunch between semesters) and in other forums, but it is a dynamic  focus with integrally minded people I know within the Denver area.

From my perspective, accepting the frame of climate change as real or not real is  accepting the terms of debate offered by some in the US right. The ranks of climate change sceptics (scientists) has always been small is getting smaller. Even some comentators on the right have admitted time and science have verified much of what Al Gore has to say in "An Inconvenent Truth." But setting aside the either/or question people need to talk about  questions about the possible severity and potential consequences and the range of appropriate social and political responses. And that will need all sides at the table and that is why I believe an integral approach is absolutely essential, especially through cross level communication discussed by Barrett and others. Complex science and policy raises a number of difficult areas related to democracy and an informed citizenry and leaders. Citizens can be intimidated by experts, may not have time to review literature, and be faced with unfamiliar jargon. Citizens have been lied to by experts (50s era nuclear tests). Science runs on slow time and is comfortable with uncertainty, debate and verification. Policy moves on a faster track from political pressure and often without certainty. When dealing with complex issues governing officials often don't have full expertise and rely on expert staff (not elected) or outside experts or short summaries of more complex studies. Even with good information they may be forced to rely on what is politically possible rather than the "rational" policy choice.

Hi Ewan,

Thanks to you and Annalene for the great links and resources and AQAL exercise.

 

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Namaste,
Harv

"(The) Practice of love is always available- and expressive of your deepest truth- right now."
-David Deida

Hi Ewan,

I’ve been away from this thread too long and am very grateful to return and see your kind post from Annelene. Thank you Annelene. I will embrace the injunction you present and see what I come up with. I so much appreciate your efforts and the links as I am in a period or re-self education in the matters.

I have just returned from a science symposium gathered around works at the Grand Staircase Escalante National Monument and was amazed at the vast amount of research going on related to climate change in the 1.9 million acre monument. There was startling evidence that the southwest has just been through the coolest wettest 30 years in recent geological history and that we should expect to see our six year drought extend for around another 30-40 years.

I also would like to report again about BP solar panels that were previously praised in this thread. In the last month, three of my six panels have had diode failures and have been sent out for repair. I am quite disappointed as they are our sole source of power and I feel that the technology should run a little longer than 5 years without problems. So if you are considering solar; get panels that have on site-replaceable diodes rather than sealed units.

Hi Harv,

Fully agree with what you say. I guess if time is a factor then until we reach a consensus through integral cross fertilization and actually address the issue on a global scale; each of us that feel inclined to do so can be the change we want to see in ways that work.

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With Love, John

"The real voyage of discovery lies not in seeking new landscapes but in having new eyes." Marcel Proust