Who here understands Mary?

St. Louis deMontfort advocated a path that involved devotion to Mary.

He was on to something. He was also on to somethng pretty deep and powerful, that brings us directly to the core of our beings in a most unique way.

Past your self contraction, through devotional surrender to Mary - Divine Mother.

The Feminine Deity is so missing from religious culture and most religious discussion, especially in the west, but mostly everywhere.

And yet the presence of Mother Mary shines out all over the world, somehow impossible to make go away despite the fact that it has been ardently tried (even by the Catholic Church).

And that is what is so powerful about this path.

The definition of God as spekn by Mary in a recent (subtle level) vision:

The Fullness of Life

Who here understands Mary?

 

---

"With whom or with what are you in communion at this moment?"
. . ."I?" he replied, almost mechanically. "Why not with anyone or anything."
"You must be a marvel . . . if you are able to continue in that state for long."
-Constantin Stanislavsky

I think it is difficult to understand Mary because the world has been based almost entirely on men's account of it (history). God, Jesus, Buddha, and others, were men. Unfortunately, even America's female leaders today are following a man's scheme which makes it further difficult to understand Mary because no one emulates Her in wide public view. Hollywood is doing a better job of it: Angelina Jolie adopts African children, Oprah shows black poor women that they can be accepted by white society, Susan Sarandon speaks out for peace, etc.

I think it is difficult to understand Mary because the world has been based almost entirely on men's account of it (history).

Exactly why I started this thread. Even now, even here at ISC, far too little about this extraordinary aspect of your own Reality.

And that is why I put this in "Help Build ISC."

God, Jesus, Buddha, and others, were men. Unfortunately, even America's female leaders today are following a man's scheme which makes it further difficult to understand Mary because no one emulates Her in wide public view.

A pretty deep subject in itself. And yet, another reason that I see here for starting this, despite the fact that there is even violent hatred (from both men and women -although all caused by "man") towards "The Blessed Virgin Mary" . . . She's freaking Everywhere. No matter how many times pathological (*** it or kill it) eros tries and has tried to stamp her out . . . She is always still there.

At least in the western world (and I am pretty sure in the eastern to some great extent) Mary is the single and only Divine Female around-and She remains extremely powerful (where, here, I am speaking of Her as an image of something).

Whatever they did way back when-refurbishing Isis or "pagan" goddesses or whatever-they were spot on to maintain a Mother Mary.

Mother of God.

Mother of God.

Mother of God.

I honestly think the world would have ended already if they didn't.

And so for now, for any interested in Integral Spirituality, I offer a challenge:

I dare anyone reading this, right now, to, from the bottom of your Heart, from the Deepest core of your being that you can find, - ask Mary about something. Ask Her for something, ask Her about something.

I absolutely guarantee you that, so long as you are open to it and coming from your Heart, you will get a response . . .

 . . . and that response will most likey shatter your ego, shatter your self-contraction by turning you into a baby. A innocent weeping baby that you will now suddenly realize has always been held tightly and closely within a Mother's arms . . . and never let go of.

I dare ya . . .

Hollywood is doing a better job of it: Angelina Jolie adopts African children, Oprah shows black poor women that they can be accepted by white society, Susan Sarandon speaks out for peace, etc.

I really appreciate your thoughts on this. It's true. There are indeed profound truths that have been lost in the chaos and lost in the modern movement and change.

And yet, again, still . . .secretly lurking in the background, gentle and passive and extraordinarily powerful . . . remains always, not matter what, the Mother.

Who does not have the image from Paul McCartney?

When I find myself in time of trouble

Mother Mary comes to me

Speaking words of wisdom

Let it be

He was actually talking about his own, biological mother, who's name was Mary, but everyone in the word readily thought he meant something else.

Peace

---

"With whom or with what are you in communion at this moment?"
. . ."I?" he replied, almost mechanically. "Why not with anyone or anything."
"You must be a marvel . . . if you are able to continue in that state for long."
-Constantin Stanislavsky

I think everyone is in a struggle to empower oneself. Empowerment must come through belief which comes from one metaphor or another. Whatever works is True.

 

As an afterthought, I remember once sitting in the back area of Lincoln Center at Midnight and calling my mother on my cell phone. I was sobbing, forcing the words to come out of my trembling lips, "mom, I never told you this but I love you". She replied with a voice that sounded empowered with Mother Mary, "I know my son."

Yeah, it's nothing but tears.

Real ones.

Real Cool ones.

Tim

---

"With whom or with what are you in communion at this moment?"
. . ."I?" he replied, almost mechanically. "Why not with anyone or anything."
"You must be a marvel . . . if you are able to continue in that state for long."
-Constantin Stanislavsky

Hi Tim --

I do love Mother Mary and your thread here reminds me that I have perhaps taken her for granted lately! So tonight I will pray a rosary . . .

Here are a few praise poems and passages about Mary --

 

Alleluia! light

burst from your untouched

womb like a flower on the farther side

of death. The world-tree

is blossoming. Two

realms become one.

--Hildegard of Bingen, 12th century

 

The wind is like Gabriel and you are like Mary

   Jesus the face of flower, born from these two

The dancing of you two is the key to eternity

   May God bless this dance.

--Rumi, 14th century

 

Her womb is the field of space, her heart the pulse of time, her life the cosmic dream of which each of our own lives is a reflex; and her charm is the attractive power, not of a yonder shore, but of this. In short: in biblical terms, she is Eve; or rather, Eve extended to be the mother, not only of mankind but of all things, the rocks and trees, beasts, birds and fish, the sun and moon and stars.

--Joseph Campbell, 20th century.

 

Guadalupe is a girl gang leader in heaven.

   She is unlike the pale blue serene woman.

She is serene, yes, like a great ocean is serene.

   She is obedient, yes, like the sunrise

   is obedient to the horizon line.

      She is sweet, yes,

   like a huge forest of sweet maple trees.

      She has great heart, vast holiness

   and like any girl gang leader ought,

            substantial hips.

   Her lap is big enough

   to hold every last one.

      Her embrace

      can hold us,

All  . . . .

--Clarissa Pinkola Estes, 20th century

 

Pax,

another Mary

---

Let the beauty we love be what we do.
There are hundreds of ways to kneel and kiss the ground.

~Rumi

"Let not your heart be disturbed.
Do not fear that sickness,
nor any other sickness or anguish.
Am I not here, who is your Mother?
Are you not under my protection?
Am I not your health?
Are you not happily within my fold?
What else do you wish?
Do not grieve nor be disturbed by anything."
(Words of Our Lady of to Juan Diego)

---

"With whom or with what are you in communion at this moment?"
. . ."I?" he replied, almost mechanically. "Why not with anyone or anything."
"You must be a marvel . . . if you are able to continue in that state for long."
-Constantin Stanislavsky

Beautiful thread developing here, dear friends

I understand why this thread is here but as i watch how it is developing, i also cannot help feeling this could also serve a beautiful purpose of devotion and practice in another forum... If anyone of you feel so inclined, please feel free to start this thread in the general discussion area as well.

Having lived pretty much all my life in Sri Lanka, a mostly Theravada Buddhist population, i never really got to know about any of the Christian forms and figures of worship, devotion, and Love.  However, for some odd reason, i have always had an almost unconscious appreciation for Mother Mary. Without my ever really knowing it...i have had an incredible sense of love inside me anytime i listened to Ave Maria  (sung or played by just about anyone, throughout history). She is a mystery to me and yet I feel some unexplainable familiarity...

The Blessed Virgin Mary Compared to a Window - Written in 1944 by Thomas Merton.

Because my will is simple as a window
And knows no pride of original birth,
It is my life to die, like glass, by light:
Slain in the strong rays of the bridegroom sun.

Because my love is simple as a window
And knows no shame of original dust,
I longed all night, (when I was visible) for dawn my death:
When I would marry day, my Holy Spirit:
And die by transsubstantiation into light.

For light, my lover, steals my life in secret.
I vanish into day, and leave no shadow
But the geometry of my cross,
Whose frame and structure are the strength
By which I die, but only to the earth,
And am uplifted to the sky my life.

When I became the substance of my lover,
(Being obedient, sinless glass)
I love all things that need my lover's life,
And live to give my newborn Morning to your quiet rooms,
-Your rooms, that would be tombs,
Or vaults of night, and death, and terror,
Fill with the clarity of living Heaven,
Shine with the rays of God's Jerusalem:
O shine, bright Sions!

Because I die by brightness and the Holy Spirit,
The sun rejoices in your jail, my kneeling Christian,
(Where even now you weep and grin
To learn, from my simplicity, the strength of faith).

Therefore do not be troubled at the judgements of the thunder,
Stay still and pray, still stay, my other son,
And do not fear the armies and black ramparts
Of the advancing and retreating rains:
I'll let no lightning kill your room's white order.

Although it is the day's last hour,
Look with no fear:
For the torn storm lets in, at the world's rim,
Three streaming rays as straight as Jacob's ladder:

And you shall see the sun, my Son, my Substance,
Come to convince the world of the day's end, and of the night,
Smile to the lovers of the day in smiles of blood;
For though my love, He'll be their Brother,
My light - the Lamb of their Apocalypse.

 

Such Love...

---

Nomali


~Save the Earth- it's the only planet with Chocolate.

Wow. Merton is . . .  perfect analogy:

Because my will is simple as a window
And knows no pride of original birth,
It is my life to die, like glass, by light:
Slain in the strong rays of the bridegroom sun.

Because my love is simple as a window

The Presence is already on this thread becasue you have just said the exact thing I wanted next to post. You give the exact 1st person witness/experience/perspective that I have observed in 3rd person.

There's something about Mary . . .

. . . for some odd reason, i have always had an almost unconscious appreciation for Mother Mary. Without my ever really knowing it...i have had an incredible sense of love inside me anytime i listened to Ave Maria  (sung or played by just about anyone, throughout history). She is a mystery to me and yet I feel some unexplainable familiarity...

I think this is the case with more people than would admit it or even know or realize it -the world over and almost universally. What I think is interesting to look at is- why? Even despite efforts to get rid of her once and for all by both men and women. What is it about Her that wont go away and that we still need and secretly hunger for . . . ?

I think it is (very obviously) this feminine side of Spirit -Goddess and, even more,  Divine Mother-that we need -and that we are unconsciously drawn to. Think of how deep, in the core of all our beings - the reality of a Mother . . .

(In fact, I think this is at least one instance where the Jungian archetypes of our collective past, premodern and even in this lifetime,  can and/or do meet Subtle Level Form, and the Form is the Window . . . and it's powerful . . . think of how powerful . . . and the potential fullness of Spirit in that. . .)

One way or another, along the spiritual and mystical path, the path of realization, a moment comes when we must surrender, and/or surrender resistance.

St. Louis de Montfort advocated that devotion to Mary was the expedient path, because, just as Merton says, She is that window . . . And I think it is the feminine side, the Mother, that makes surrender to that window so expedient. (And the union of archetype and Form, Heaven and Earth, Past and Future, Timelessness and Time. )

The Mystical Rose, The Divine Mother.

Many people do not realize this, or it is at least not spoke of very often, but the two aspects of the Tao - Yin and Yang-are said not to be equivalent.

One is always slightly more powerful than the other. And the one that is always slightly more powerful is the feminine, the passive, the soft, the surrender . . .

The hard must always yield to the soft, the active must always yield to the passive, and even in Christianity we were taught, paradoxically, that the Son would always yield to the Mother (even though the Christ/God is said to be more powerful) . . . because She is that window . . . as Merton says, to the sun . . .

A  devotional thread would be great. I will start it if and when inspired or someone else can if they get their first.

But I do want to continue here for a while, just with some of these introductory thoughts.

And again, becasue I feel it is so important.

This aspects is consciously missing from the world's Spirituality . . . even though it has always been there.

Peace, and Ave Maria

Tim

---

"With whom or with what are you in communion at this moment?"
. . ."I?" he replied, almost mechanically. "Why not with anyone or anything."
"You must be a marvel . . . if you are able to continue in that state for long."
-Constantin Stanislavsky

Hello all, first post.

Mary got me through a lot at the military academy.  The academic year often found me with my head on my desk between classes doing the "Hail Mary."  It took me somewhere else.

Summer training I had a scrap of parachute cord wtih 10 knots hidden up my uniform sleeve.  I made a 19 mile road march with 2 broken bones in my foot, 2/3 of my weight packed on my back, starting at the bottom of the ski slope.  That scrap of cord, my rosary, made it possible to be semi-removed from my painful present.  Kept me semi-sane for hours of sniper training while mosquitoes whined and dined and we were not allowed to move.   

I'm not Catholic and I don't do the rosary any more, but 16 years later and Mary is still who I turn to.   I believe every tradition has powerful focus elements.  I would like to learn about them.  I know there are a lot of other "bead counters" out there.  Knowledge or links are always appreciated. I would love to hear about tried and true methods of others.

Light, Life, & Love,

          Beth

  

Holy Mary, Mother of God,

she just stepped into me as I was reading this thread. She does that sometimes. Ever since I acknowledged her reality... ten years ago, when my gay friend Russell suddenly acted totally out of character... burst into tears, started to recite a prayer to the blessed Virgin and told me he had been building shrines to her everywhere, secretly, even as a little boy. That's when she became present to me as well. Thank you, Russellino, for introducing me to her.

Holy Mary, Mother of God, you are more real than I.

M


Note: edited for clarification of what happened there.

The content of religious experiences, cross-culturally, is often described using feminine imagery, and I imagine there is something to that.  But I don't understand the need to identify that which is experienced with the historical person of Mary.  It simply perpetuates a divisive mythology.

I remember reading somewhere that, when Catholic missionaries went to China, they heard about appearances of the Bodhisattva of Compassion, Avalotkitesvara, in the female form of Kuan-Yin.  Naturally, they assumed it was Mary.

It isn't difficult to see what is going on here.  Any experience that has a feminine element is simply identified with some female figure from one's native tradition, and often this identification is taken for granted.  It's a pretty clear example of what Wilber calls the "myth of the given," and I think a truly Integral approach would acknowledge that.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying feminine imagery is bad.  The ubiquity of feminine imagery suggests that there is something to it.  But it seems to me that identifying the experience with a historical person is unwarranted, and unnecessarily divisive.

---

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.

But it seems to me that identifying the experience with a historical person is unwarranted, and unnecessarily divisive.

I agree that it would be divisive if we were to say that the feminine element of the divine is reflected only in Mary, flesh-and-blood mother of Jesus. But what if Mary, as historical figure and as co-created cultural icon / metaphor, were understood to be just one among the myriad manifestations of the feminine divine?

Mary

---

Let the beauty we love be what we do.
There are hundreds of ways to kneel and kiss the ground.

~Rumi

Thanks for your input MaryW, but PrickliestPear, you have no idea how thankful I am that you posted this here. As I see it, whatever we are ultimately talking about is at work.

Becasue, inspired by Ken's latest chapter of IS I have been wanting somewhere on this forum to begin examining these things -just what you mentioned; visions-with regard to the postmodern revolution. And you do indeed hit the nail on the head.

"Not through introspection but through history do we come to know ourselves."

It is all of a piece of, just what you said, "The Myth of the Given."

The fact is, that something is happening and it is indeed real and it is indeed transpersonal. But, in my own cross-cultural studies, it is absolutely correct, these things, though real, are indeed just as susceptible to the “myth of the given” as anything else. It is obvious that our minds play a part in the construction, even higher mind, and also in some truly amazing ways. But consciousness –in this case, consciousness of a higher reality (states-in this case the subtle state) –is not enough.

Think of it.

"Not through introspection but through history do we come to know ourselves."

As I said above, I believe "Mary" is significant becasue, at least in the west, there is simply no other personification of the Divine Feminine anywhere, except for Mary who is also to some extent recognized by Islam. I am so thankful that you mentioned Avalotkitesvara. I also mentioned how she is directly related to previous "pagan" goddesses and later will present a study on that, which was actually agreed upon by group of Bishops! (i.e. this has nothing to do with the "person" Mary, so much as something bigger -but if you want her, need her, believe her to be Jesus' physical mother, great! And She doesn't seen to care either . . . no matter what stage you are at.)

From an integral perspective, indeed what we have to find is the pattern that connects-that is part of my aim (and I have been working on it for a long time).

But two more things seems clear. One, it simply doesn't matter what "image" or images or personifications you might find personal devotion to, there is something incredible there and two, most people can't even recognize the significance of all cultures past their own, so, there is always going to be a divisiveness for the lower stages. We can now do a lot to begin changing that for the future, or at least softening it, and that is the reason why I think this should be a part of ISC. What is there to Integrate?

"The Myth of the Given" explains a lot.

I am going to later present some AQAL evidence of a Marian apparition going on right now. And then I would like to AQAL, IS, States and Stages, all the rest, analyze it.

I think we are going to find something amazing.

Peace

Tim

 

---

"With whom or with what are you in communion at this moment?"
. . ."I?" he replied, almost mechanically. "Why not with anyone or anything."
"You must be a marvel . . . if you are able to continue in that state for long."
-Constantin Stanislavsky

Okay,

This is an UR empirical study of the visionaries of Medjugorje both during the state of vision (and communication) with the what they (UL) see as the Blessed Virgin Mary and otherwise. (Other quadrants to follow.) I have highlighted some of my favorite observations and key points.

*******************************************************************

Michael W. Petrides has done extensive study in brain laterality and visual perception research at the Institute of Living, and has doctoral training in clinical psychology at St. Louis University. He currently directs the Psychiatric Outpatient Clinic's mental health services for Catholic Charities in the Diocese of Norwich, Connecticut. The following is from his commentary that appeared in The Catholic Transcript, September 10, 1993:

It is extremely noteworthy that the reported apparitions in Medjugorje are the first apparitions in history to be throughly investigated by science. Professor Henri Joyeaux headed a team from the University of Montpellier, France. Dr. Frigerio and colleagues from Italy did further investigation. The regularity of the apparitions has made for consistent and extremely reliable findings.

Five alleged visionaries tested were found to simultaneously look at precisely the same spot (even though no reference point was visible) within one-fifth of a second of each other when the Blessed Virgin Mary allegedly appears. Such synchronization can only be explained by some external "object" holding their gaze -- but one which those around them could not see.

During the same one-fifth of a second, there are simultaneous kneeling and the cessation of eye movements. There is no eye movement during the entire apparition (from 3 to 45 minutes). There is also the simultaneous raising of their heads and gazing upwards while remaining fixated on a spot moving upwards when the apparition is finishing.

Two of the alleged visionaries do not blink at all during the apparition. The eyeball normally dries when there is no regular blinking (15-20 times a minute) to moisten the cornea, but lacrimal secretion does not seem necessary during the apparition. The other alleged visionaries blink about half the normal rate. None of them blinks in response to touching the eye during the apparition (cornea sensitivity to varying pressures is completely absent), although they blink normally at other times.

There is no reaction to pain during the apparition. When touched with an algometer, which causes a cutaneous lesion or skin burn, there was complete absence of sensitivity. The alleged visionaries react normally to pain at other times.

The interesting results of a hearing test before and during an apparition showed normal hearing, but during the apparition, an input of ninety decibels (equivalent to a loud explosion) showed NO reaction. Auditory evoked potential measurement (electrical activity of the ear) indicates normal ear activity with no transmission to the inner ear during the apparition. It is a measurable inhibition of hearing that is involuntary and inexplicable physiologically.

Electroencephalographic (EEG) tests confirm that the alleged visionaries' brain functioning is normal and healthy. EEG tests rule out the possibility of epilepsy or psychotic hallucinations. The alleged visionaries are not asleep or dreaming either.[I highlight this becasue it demonstrates immersion in the subtle state during gross waking state. Which I believe more or less defines an authentic vision experience of this nature.] Hysterical neurotic reaction or pathological ecstasy is also ruled out by the EEG testing.

What EEG testing showed was that before the apparition, the brain waves are predominantly beta rhythm interspersed by alpha rhythm (normal conscious attentiveness). At the start of the apparition, the beta rhythm remains for a short time and then is replaced by an almost uninterrupted alpha rhythm. Alpha rhythm is most often observed during relaxation, in a state of expectation, or engaged in meditation. It also usually requires practice to achieve such a diffuse response. Because most of the brain is devoted to visual processing, it is noteworthy that the alpha rhythm over the entire cranium was exhibited while the alleged visionaries had their eyes wide open throughout the apparition. Closed eyes would be expected with alph rhythm because visual stimulation usually produces interference with alpha rhythm.

To test visual stimulation further, a 1000 watt light bulb was placed in front of the eyes of the alleged visionaries during the apparition. Not only is a 1000 watt light bulb usually painful to the eye but also it would normally cause increased blinking and influence alpha rhythm. There was no blinking movement of the eyelids to the 1000 watt stimulus. There was an interesting pupillary response. The pupil contracted as one would expect in bright light but there was no change in alpha rhythm to the 1000 watt light. This is scientifically inexplicable and never seen before. FOR THE PUPIL TO RESPOND, THE BRAIN MUST REGISTER THE LIGHT BUT NO BRAIN WAVE CHANGE TOOK PLACE. Additionally, such intense stimulation normally causes a significant cortical response, but none occurred during the apparition period.

During the apparition period, another scientifically inexplicable event takes place. The alleged visionaries voices stop during the time that they are having the vision. Even though all the muscles involved in speech continue (all mouth, jaw and throat muscles), the larynx (voice box) shuts off. This is physically impossible. The laryngeal function cannot be physically isolated from the rest of the muscles of speech. The larynx ceases to emit sound during the apparition -- except for one exception. In unison, during the apparition the alleged visionaries will be heard simultaneously praying, "Who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name..." When asked, [LL] they report [UL] Mary is leading them in the Lord's Prayer.

In summary, the unique aspects of the results of the scientific investigations point to the conclusion that nothing in the physical realm is allowed to interfere with the apparition experience. Scientific experts have defined the phenomena " as a state of active, intense prayer, partially disconnected from the external world, a state of contemplation with a separate person whom they alone can see, hear, and touch."

 

---

"With whom or with what are you in communion at this moment?"
. . ."I?" he replied, almost mechanically. "Why not with anyone or anything."
"You must be a marvel . . . if you are able to continue in that state for long."
-Constantin Stanislavsky