Today January 3 2024 a two year U.S. Senator wins the first vote for the job of the presidency of the United States defeating a hard working charasmatic southerner and the one and only "Clinton Machine" who had all they needed except one thing, an INTEGRAL VISION.  Mark my word whether Obama wins or loses today Integral has shown it's face.

Edwards had everything a great story good looks great speaker humble beginnings and amazing talent. At a time when Democrats should go with the safe bet he amongst other very experienced senators and governors could not catch an unknown former state senator and two year US Senator with a controversial muslim sounding name in what the Republicans call the "age of terrorism".

That name is Barack Hussein Obama and it could not stop the effectiveness of the Integral Worldview in getting the job done. When I figured Obama to actually be Integral (which i was cautious about ) I told my friend that he would be around 10xs more efficient than the typical seeker of the presidency and I have been right.

Like Sri Aurobindo said a radical idea will manifest but then get beatin out by the conservative mind for it does not matter because that idea has now arrived in the manifest world and will at one day evolve to be a common belief. WHETHER OBAMA WINS OR LOSES TODAY  MY INTEGRAL FRIENDS WE CAN SMILE AND MINDFULLY BREATHE A SIGH OF RELIEF THAT WE WILL SOMEDAY BE ABLE TO TELL OUR SIMPLE BUT IMPORTANT STORY TO THOSE WHO ARE LUCKY ENOUGH TO HEAR WHERE WE WERE, HOW WE THOUGHT, AND WHAT WE PERCIEVED ON THE DAY INTEGRAL ARRIVED ON THE WORLD SCENE.

                                                                                                            Love and Light

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Rocco

Rocco:  I would love to understand the thought process that you used to determine that Obama is Integral and teal.  It's a question that I have been wrestling with and understanding your perspective would help me a great deal. 

My goal is to support the candidate who demonstrates the highest altitude.  I have found it very hard to gauge Hillary given the structured nature of her campaign which makes it difficult to read her.  That said, she shows her shadow quite often particularly the orientation of a victim when she believes that her opponents are piling on - first because she was a woman and when that fell flat because she was leading.  Either way, she believes that others are piling on.  As Ken would say, the shadow goes all the way up. 

The Republican choices are much clearer.  The candidates range from amber (Huckabee) to orange (Romney).  I am yet to see a viable second tier republican candidate. 

Does anyone know if Ken has shared his views about the candidates for this presidential election?

Thank you for responding. I have read Barack Obamas book The Audacity Of Hope to get a definitive answer on whether or not he has a Teal worldview. I have come to the conclusion that he does. In the book he goes through the worldviews of the right, far right, left, and far left and basically talks about how they are all right on some points and wrong when they get too exclusive and go too far with their views. His economic views have been praised by Conservative Ben Stein as being very creative and has been attacked by many liberals from Edwards and Hillary to The Socialist Greens on Air America Radio for having a Health Care plan that only mandates coverage for children and not all Americans. They want him to "force" or "mandate"(Green)that all adult Americans buy health insurance which can hurt many Americans and some very small businesses who can't afford it whereas he says that we will make health care affordable and not "make" or "force" or "mandate" everyone buys health care. 

He has been criticized by Bill Maher (who has a Teal political view as well, i feel) for saying we  need to understand and embrace the views of fundamentalist evangelical Christians which is something I don't think true Orange or Green (especially Boomeritis) feels. Not their Fundamentalism but their emphasis on Left Quadrant interior values such as purpose, family values, destiny, God, structure, discipline, Growth to Goodness, not Retro-Goodness. His economic philosophy embraces capitalism(personal responsiblity) and socialism(community, collectivism, compassion ) and never goes too far.

Go read the book for alot more examples, it is also a good book especially the second half mostly the chapters Opportunity and Faith. Now with that said, all the Democrats proposals sound integral if you are talking quadrants because the mainstream won't let them go too far left or right. But the message of John Edwards was "there is two Americas, the rich and the poor, the corporations are evil and destroying America " are common things he says but the Obama view is an Integral view saying "There is One America, there is not Red States or Blue States, There is the United States...." He did not call anyone evil except terrorists, he does not divide America Rich vs. Poor,  Liberal vs. Conservative.  He says we will unite while remaining respectively different. He is not 100% Teal but I feel is just an intellectual who is beyond green and has woken up to a view that has room for all including the rich corporations and conservative christians who are wholly important for solving Global Problems.

One last thing, I am a Democrat who loves politics and wants to win badly in November. I support Obama because all the Dems and Republicans from Hillary to Edwards Dodd Biden Bill Clinton Romney McCain Rudy Huckabee and so on all thought we can go into Iraq and with Green Sentiments and Amber fervor we can change a Purple/Red/Amber Tribal/Power/Mythic culture with our machine guns and bombs, and plop an Orange value system in the Middle East and make Baghdad a semi European city. When Obama was running for the senate he came out against the popular war and something in his intellect helped him predict the occupation, costs, the increase of terrorism and increased hatred of America in the Middle East. He lived in Indonesia when he was a child and he credits that time for his Global Systems worldview  in understanding how other people from countries including second and third world countries think and feel.

Like Bill Maher said "if you ask the people of Iraq if they would rather have Saddam Hussein in power or their little sister the freedom to walk down the street in a mini skirt they would choose to have Saddam back in power!"  The Dems and Repubs views were either Amber(onward Christian soldiers! ) or Flatland "who doesn't want to be like America!?" (Orange and Green) and Obamas was not. His was these people will rise up fight us and have a civil war (Teal, I feel.) obviously understanding they are Traditional and not capable of being Modernists yet.

I am not saying he will win and bring in an Integral Revolution but him winning in Iowa which is 96% White! and quite a farmers state i believe voted a man who looks black has an African and Middle Eastern name while communicating a Global worldview is damn inspiring . We are surely in changing times.

Sorry it was so long hope you enjoy.

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Rocco

Instinctively, I really like Obama. I'm not an American, however, and haven't assessed him with any real care.

I have read (on this site, perhaps), that Obama lacks the powerful business and political connections to actually get anything of note done if he were elected President. If that were the case one could forsee a situation where his election as President actually acts to discredit all that is so admirable about him: He wins the White House and then fails to get much done, which presents him and his ideas as ineffectual and lacking reality. 

A hard row to hoe, as they say in Iowa. But then look what happened there.

Obama may be aware of more than one quadrant, but he's as green as they come.  Teal?  Check your shadow and projections for a case of the pre-trans phallacy.

The yellow candidates are Huckabee and Clinton.  Why do I say Huckabee?  I watched and listened to him get grilled for an hour on Meet the Press and I see yellow.  Hillary?  We yellows are political centerists and as such are hard to pin down.

I've watched hour long grillings of all the candiates and while some pander to and espouse blue thinking, they are a pretty healthy orange bunch when it comes to human rights and opportunity.

I can only hope who ever gets elected will be able to make things better.

I was praying health care would be the Bush "Nixon in China."  Oh well, that was  pre-911.

markevans:

Obama may be aware of more than one quadrant, but he's as green as they come.  Teal?  Check your shadow and projections for a case of the pre-trans phallacy.

I'm  not quite sure what you mean here  Mark. In particular the last sentence. Could you expand a little?

Cheers,

Castel

Not to be a jerk but have you ever actually read a Ken Wilber book before? Do you even know what those colors mean? Do you even do shadow work? Go read Huckabees comments on environmentalism and HIV/AIDS and tell me if he is Yellow, if you think so then i'm sorry but you have no business commenting on an integral forum. As for Hillary, she is tough and smart but still is a poll-driven politician with less experience than everyone thinks she has and did not have the right judgement when it came to Iraq and that is why she is getting creamed by the Teal minority junior Senator. I sincerely hope you're joking. ( by the way that's not how you spell fallacy, actually I may be wrong but the way you spelled it that may be another word for penis)

Do you consider yourself second-tier? Have you actually made the leap? The dropping off of much of the fear and ego you've carried around most of your life is no small task and is an unmistakable experience. I've spent years reading spiritual books and reading Ken Wilber since I was 18 and I thought I was so "evlolved" but I was just another Greeny. It takes actual ILP almost everyday and an intense desire to change and go beyond yourself. Good luck and much love.

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Rocco

I saw Obama speak at my former law firm in a small (50 or so) group setting, just before he declared his candidacy.  Not only was I impressed by his speaking ability, but what struck me, as a well-read Integralite, was his seamlessly moving between quadrants in discussing how to address issues facing Chicago, the United States, and the world.  Sensing that he had either schooled himself in integral theory or had intiuited it, I caught him in the hallway.  I asked him if he had heard of Wilber.  He said no.  I told him about A Theory of Everything and Integral Institute.  He pulled out a notepad, added it to two other items on the pad, thanked me and said he'd check it out.  Did he?  No idea.  But he's definitely trending at least yellow, and given his organizational abilities and interpersonal capacity, I would assert he's moving if not moved ahead of yellow in at least a few lines of development.

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One does not discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time. --Andre Gide

Hope is as hollow as fear. --Lao-tzu

That's pretty cool that you asked him about Wilber I always wonder when I see someone who's in the spotlight and an intellectual if they heard of Wilber. I agree he at least in some lines of devolpment has moved into a Teal/Yellow arena. I am very skeptical of him actually winning the primaries let alone the presidency but for him to do what he has done is very impressive and marks a generational shift towards something more Integral something more inclusive.

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Rocco

I'll throw this into the pot...it's from Holons (http://holons-news.com/). I was trying to find an old "issue" of Holons where Audacity of Hope was rated either green or teal (can't remember...which is a bummer) by Holons' editors I guess. Couldn't find it but came across the following:

5 Reasons Why I'm Voting for Obama

Posted January 8th, 2024 by Corey W. deVos

5 Reasons Why I'm Voting for Obama
by Matt Rentschler

1. His third way politics: not ideologically driven, and not merely political compromise, but a pragmatic flexibility that allows him to move from left to right on, and ultimately through, issues.

2. His cognition, self-identity, and morality are seemingly Green to Teal or higher, which means he meets the prerequisite altitude(s) to handle the complexities of 21st century foreign and domestic policy.

3. As a result, what he lacks in experience or age (his two biggest criticisms) he more than makes up for in political judgment and intuition, as exemplified in his decision to not authorize the invasion of Iraq in the first place, as well as his current stance on Iran.

4. His image. Or more specifically, his face and name. As a man of color with a Muslim background, Obama has the potential to rebrand the long war against global extremism as a truly connected and impartial effort to minimize human suffering, rather than some profit-driven imperialist adventure or fundamentalist crusade.

5. His faith, or "secular humanism." With so much terrorism carried out in religion's name and with the US itself facing a similar pressure cooker, Obama's complex, mature spirituality is a huge asset in both foreign and domestic policy.

I could come up with 5 more reasons, but those will do for now. Probably more so than any other presidential candidate, Obama offers a way to transcend several dualisms and dichotomies: liberal v. conservative; atheist v. fundamentalist; black v. white; Christian v. Muslim. Whether or not he can make good on this potential remains to be seen, but presidential elections are always a gamble, no matter who you vote for. So, as it stands now, Obama has my vote if he gets the nomination, because he holds the most promise of being an "integral leader."

(For an excellent, and I believe Teal, perspective on Obama's candidacy, see Andrew Sullivan's article "Goodbye to All That.")

--
Matt Rentschler
Managing Editor
AQAL: Journal of Integral Theory and Practice

Ladies and gentlement, let's be very careful with the political labeling. Indeed be very very careful. One of the thing that still concerns me, and I think Ken knows this concern well, is how many people are going to jump on the "I am turquoise bandwagon." I am glad that Ken Wilber has shown in some of the videos that he acknowledges the structure-stages model can be abused, just imagine how many people in the mainstream will say that "I am integral, therefore my view is better than yours, you are at a lower level of consciousness..."

  Remember, as Ken points out politicians usually have 2nd-tier cognitive development, at least teal for most, but their center of gravity may vary. By labeling a politician teal, and thus making the candidate seem integral while w/o addressing which line we are really talking about, it's indeed committing Level/Line fallacy, confusing "talk" with "walk".

I have no doubt that Mr. Obama has high cognitive development; and seeing his grandmother on TV and realizing that Obama, due to his heritage. is likely to have a higher sense of empathy with those who suffer. His speech on 1/08/08 is most inspiring indeed.

But let's recall that Bill Clinton, now as an ex-president, knows, that is he KNOWS integral philosophy, explicitly; he factors development of consciousness into equation. If Hillary were to be elected, it's highly likely that Bill will have a considerable influence, and if Bill were to be able to make Integral politics recommendation--perhaps we would not see the world yet so fragmented.

What is a level of development? It's a wave, or in Ken's words, a probablity wave, not a strict level. I am not convinced until I see evidence that Obama has read integral politics, I am not in full support--because there's no guarantee that Obama will act out an integrally-informed decision every time a bill comes to his desk! You see?! He could act out from Turquoise, which I believe is his cognitive development, that global-systemic, cross-paradigmatic mind that sees the world in a dynamically interconnected manner. Or he could act out from Greem some of the time, which tries not to marginalize anybody, including the Terrorist, be it protestant, muslim or New Age. He might resort to the same old cliche, "a terrorist is another man's freedom fighter," while disregarding that there are people from the other group (eg Middle East) who condemn such action. Remember, a leader who does not consciously know integral politics gives you NO guarantee that all his public behaviors will be 2nd-tier.

Of course, there is the argument that knowing integral politics does not mean that a leader would apply it. Indeed, that's a very important truth, and that must be taken into account. Thus by realizing both the probablity wave factor AND no guarantee of application even if a politician were integrally-informed can we truly arrive at an integral analysis of politics.

Many of us predict that the next president will be a Democrat, and all current indicators seem to point to that trend. (eg huge demand for change, large disunified voices in Republican party, for example, the Republican debate is much more fractured among Ron Paul, the libertarian, Huckabee, a social conservative, Romney, a flip-flopper :), Giuliani, national defense. In contrast, on 1/6/08, the Democratic debate showed that the Democrats were much more unified. ignoring the Green/Orange disagreements)

If Barack were elected, I hope he has the courage to be truly bi-partisan, transcending caustic attacks from both liberals and conservatives. If Hillary were elected, I hope that she will act out from an integral-wave consciousness, use her husband and Al Gore as much as she can, moving into a beginning phase of a true 2nd-tier politics.

Thus friends, let's not forget, a label is just a label, anybody can claim to be 2nd-tier or integral. Development is a wave, not a cut-off line. Only by treading carefully, honoring all previous waves and views can we move on into a 2nd-tier world community that transcends and includes waves that are yet the expressions of Spirit whithin you.

 

ps I hear Ken Wilber's urgent cry for integral politics, Ken, I look forward to seeing you in 3 years.

best,

James

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O chestnut tree, great rooted blossomer,
Are you the leaf, the blossom or the bole?
O body swayed in the music, O brightening glance,
How can we know the dancer from the dance?
--W. B. Yeats

rocco:

Not to be a jerk but have you ever actually read a Ken Wilber book before? Do you even know what those colors mean? Do you even do shadow work? Go read Huckabees comments on environmentalism and HIV/AIDS and tell me if he is Yellow, if you think so then i'm sorry but you have no business commenting on an integral forum. As for Hillary, she is tough and smart but still is a poll-driven politician with less experience than everyone thinks she has and did not have the right judgement when it came to Iraq and that is why she is getting creamed by the Teal minority junior Senator. I sincerely hope you're joking. ( by the way that's not how you spell fallacy, actually I may be wrong but the way you spelled it that may be another word for penis)

Do you consider yourself second-tier? Have you actually made the leap? The dropping off of much of the fear and ego you've carried around most of your life is no small task and is an unmistakable experience. I've spent years reading spiritual books and reading Ken Wilber since I was 18 and I thought I was so "evlolved" but I was just another Greeny. It takes actual ILP almost everyday and an intense desire to change and go beyond yourself. Good luck and much love.

 

Please let's not make personal attacks like these. Let's be civil. Understand that most people in this forum are not guaranteed to be 2nd-tier in the self-line but are 2nd-tier in the cogntive line. I wonder what I-I staff will think about this issue.

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O chestnut tree, great rooted blossomer,
Are you the leaf, the blossom or the bole?
O body swayed in the music, O brightening glance,
How can we know the dancer from the dance?
--W. B. Yeats

Cahacker:

I saw Obama speak at my former law firm in a small (50 or so) group setting, just before he declared his candidacy.  Not only was I impressed by his speaking ability, but what struck me, as a well-read Integralite, was his seamlessly moving between quadrants in discussing how to address issues facing Chicago, the United States, and the world.  Sensing that he had either schooled himself in integral theory or had intiuited it, I caught him in the hallway.  I asked him if he had heard of Wilber.  He said no.  I told him about A Theory of Everything and Integral Institute.  He pulled out a notepad, added it to two other items on the pad, thanked me and said he'd check it out.  Did he?  No idea.  But he's definitely trending at least yellow, and given his organizational abilities and interpersonal capacity, I would assert he's moving if not moved ahead of yellow in at least a few lines of development.

Thats great. There's some anecdotal evidence you don't need to read Integral to be 'Integral'.

WindowlessWind:

But let's recall that Bill Clinton, now as an ex-president, knows, that is he KNOWS integral philosophy, explicitly; he factors development of consciousness into equation. If Hillary were to be elected, it's highly likely that Bill will have a considerable influence, and if Bill were to be able to make Integral politics recommendation--perhaps we would not see the world yet so fragmented.

The Clintons are fully integrated into Washington power politics and big business concerns. While Hilary would be a vast improvement on George Bush, she, too, supports ongoing American engagement in Iraq in an attempt to control oil supplies. Where is the evidence that Bill 'really knows Integral'.  He's name-checked it a couple of times? Or, that, even if he does, he would influence Hillary to enact policies along Integral lines?

Mat Rentschler:

His image. Or more specifically, his face and name. As a man of color with a Muslim background, Obama has the potential to rebrand the long war against global extremism as a truly connected and impartial effort to minimize human suffering, rather than some profit-driven imperialist adventure or fundamentalist crusade.

To 'rebrand the long war against global extremism as a truly  connected and impartial effort to minimize human suffering' Thats what's required, then,  a 'rebranding'?

I'm sure there are noble aims at work amongst some of those involved in 'the global war against extremism', there's also a terrific amount of trying to control material and energy sources for the benefit of the powerful nation concerned, and to the detriment of the 'client' nation.  The United States in the Middle East, and the Chinese and French in Africa, are  three examples of activity far far from humanitarian in either intention or outcome.

To return more closely to the issue at hand, however, I think there's a great choice between Hilary Clinton and Barak Obama. Either one of them, or a winning Republican, would be sooo much better than George Bush.

This is one of the most important topics this forum can discuss in 2024... this truly is a transformational time for America, and I think we can all agree that we have to get it right this time, or America may find a catastrophic fate. (Also, who isn't scared shitless by the recent Iran boat incident in the Gulf? What will (should?) Bush do now...).

I put to markevans: explain yourself! If you don't want a response like roccos, you can't just say "he is green" or "I see yellow" or "check your projections." It really just sounds shallow and uneducated, and you will continue to get these types of responses if you continue to respond to threads in such a brief and entirely unexplained manner. We can have our opinions (and have any reason for those opinions) about the candidates and have healthy conversation about those opinions. But we can't have a healthy conversation about their "colors" in all the lines unless we explain why we think they are that color. And of course we will disagree, but we cannot do so in a healthy way unless we explain ourselves in our best detail. I have noticied this in other postings by you, too. If there isn't true substance, save it. When it comes to these classifications, we can't just say, "because I think so."

I also agree with those in this thread who continue to raise the point that these colors are vague and fluid, waves, etc. (I often wonder, if a person can be yellow cognitively, yet green emotionally, sometimes orange in practice... how could we ever say a person has only one "color"?). WindowlessWind, you say that unless a candidate is informed by integral politics, there is no guarentee that he or she will approach the presidency with an integral analysis; your argument is also astute enough so as to recognize that even if integrally-politically informed, there is no guarentee he or she will act from it. I would like to ask you, what do you mean by "integral politics" in the first place? If you are refering to Ken's brand of integral politics, I must disagree with you. I am a staunch believer in that a person can be entirely integral (or at least act integrally) without having ever read Ken's books, so I am interested to hear if you think a candidate MUST read Ken in order to even be considered an integral candidate (if so, why?). I ask because the so-called "Third Way" is not an exclusively Wilberian idea, and I think Ken even says so himself. Interested to hear from you on this...

Back to the political discussion... Personally, I find Barack to be the most compelling candidate. He is the only candidate, to me, who is symbolic of the change we need. I admit it is a dreamy situation-- electing the first black president is NO small achievement for this country which was built on slavery. The mere statement our country could make by electing him would seem to send a strong message to the world that we reject the odd form of isolationist-imperialism of the Bush administration in favor of a non-partisan, ultimately careful stragety of learn-then-act (this of course assumes our country would/will vote for him if nominated, surely a big point of contention and worth discussion...). I share in the concerns here that Hillary is still in the deep pockets. Some of my friends work for a union on the campaign trail and inform me that Hillary has been handing out cabinet seats to those who will help in her campaign with funding and organization. Maybe this is a common practice by all (I have not heard so)... but if not, this seems like a poor way to build up a strong group of people around you.. certainly not an integral way of going about rebuilding the country (not yellow...). Many doubt Barack's experience (to which I would argue, what president-elect has ever had experience at being the president? it is always necessarily true territory. the one criteria is LEADERSHIP.) and also his connections. I share in these concerns, but I also feel that if our country elected him, all politicians would have to take notice. Perhaps this is simply my faith in the goodness of all people, yes politicians, too-- if America calls for the change, I think our senators and represantives will (even if with some resistance) meet the challenge and truly listen to Barack. The Bush's legacy is not all bad-- he has brought corruption to the forefront of the political discussion. I have faith that it can be purged, and purged quite quickly with the right leadership. For Barack to have "no-experience" or "no-clout" and yet still be elected by what will likely be one of the largest turnouts in American voting history would send the ultimate message to corruption: get out!

I hate making these connections, but when we ask if Barack is Teal or Yellow, shouldn't we ask ourselves also, was MLK Jr. Yellow? Does it matter at all if he was or not? What of JFK? I think it is less that these people are perfectly integral or whatever, more important that they can unite the country under one flag and truly turn things around. I admit to having gotten a bit emotional during Baracks speeches both in Iowa and New Hampshire; he simply moves me in ways no other candidate (read: national personality) can. When it comes to oration, eloquence, no one does better than Barack. (Remember, the president can do nothing alone when it comes to laws-- he always needs a congress, input from many people, support from states, etc. But the one thing he is always called to do, and must do always alone, is bring the country together towards a common purpose, under his own name, with his neck on the line. If anyone can do this best, it is a person with little to lose.) We cannot expect an "Integralocracy", as Ken calls it, from the next president, it is too soon for this. We SHOULD expect a figure who can unite us in a "Third Way" and alter the country's practices in a way that will prepare us for a future, even more integral, way of dealing with domestic and foreign issues. I do hope that Barack has a chance to integrally inform himself (Ken-style) over the next year, if he has not already. Maybe things will change fast enough that our culture will demand it of him and all the candidates, but this is of course a lofty hope and yet-to-be-seen. I have not had the chance to read the Audacity of Hope, but many I've met who have read it and others on this forum say it absolutely convinces them that Barack is as integral as it comes (or at least, as compassionate, caring, willing-to-succeed, "wise" as it comes). I think for a  president this ranks above all other criterion.

Looking forward to this continued discussion..

Tim

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"identity which is not convulsive ceases to exist" ---breton

Nine Ways Not to Talk about God

Hey Windowlesswind I did not mean to attack markevans but I made a post sharing my opinion with you all that the reason I believe Obama has been able to do all that he has done is because I feel he has moved into an integral Teal range and markevans replies with a completely nonsensical post telling me that because of my opinion I need to check my shadow projections and follows up with saying Mike Huckabee is actually the Teal one. I responded with questioning him because like I said he completely made no sense. And to you I also don't get what you mean when you say you can't determine whether or not he's integral because he hasn't read "integral politics". I hope you know Integral is not some brand that Ken Wilber owns and that one is not integral unless they know AQAL, Integral is a new tier and Wilber is just the most well-known integral thinker. 

To everyone thanks for keeping the conversation going  I just wanted to say that to really determine if you feel Obama is second-tier you should give his book a shot and you'll be glad to see someone with his perspective in the national spotlight.

Also I feel that if  one is truly integral then they can comfortably call someone "teal" or "amber" or "green" or whatever while knowing that that does not mean they are 100% that stage because I know we have all heard and read Ken Wilber say about a million times that stages are fluid waves of development or probablility clouds and so on. So I of course don't think Obama is 100% Teal and is gonna turn America into an integral form of gov't but that according to how i percieve his words he will operate as a president being quite integral.

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Rocco