samsarasurfing:

Helene once bothered me, but then the universe karate-kicked my ass and well...why are we picking on her? The IN~crowd is troubled by the sliver in her 3rd eye? 

Remember, remember the Pi we dismembered...

L

 

 

 

 

 

I don't think anyone has been picking on her, but it's incredibly rude to jump into a thread and just start posting some random thought that has absolutely nothing to do with what was being discussed.

There can be a nice discussion going, and then BLAM! Dead.

Unfortunately, the only person who can do something about it, won't. Note the "I'm off to bug XXX in the dreams thread" comment. There's an integral thought for you.

-V

---

In a black and white picture....there's a lot of grey junk

That Dynamic and Static Quality sounds very much like Transcend and Include.

---

myspace.com/zentaimusic

... Damn, I should get an Integral certificate or wut not, just fer reading this hole 'ntire thread!...

... 'Prolly wont tho...

... as if i cared...

... reminds me of the time...

... back in IN Band camp...

... yeah, right... wotever...

MichaelD:

Yeah I definitely recommend a re-read of Lila if you get the chance David.  One thing the book drives home is that such evaluations as the Zuni guy being a dynamic translaw catalyst for vertical change as opposed to a regressive prelaw, is that such distinctions can only be made in retrospect.  While the action is taking place, there’s literally no way to make such a fine distinction.  This is because of the novelty aspect of the situation.

Also, if things had gone differently for him and his culture, such as if his dealings with the whites had backfired, he would have been judged as a terrible leader who dealt his culture a deathblow.  Would he then still be considered a translaw?  He happened to represent the winning side in the bigger picture, and maybe he had no vision to match that bigger picture but happened to be the right guy in the right place.  Does that make him a translaw?

As I recall SD has something like this dynamic/static quality distinction built in BTW…in terms of the three different substages within each vMeme.  Something like Entry – Consolidation – Exit?  Where entry is pure dynamic, consolidation is static, and exit is the integration?

Also, this whole dynamic/static/creative thing was brilliantly elucidated by the trio of Sheldrake, McKenna and Abraham in their dialogs at Esalon which were transcribed into the book Chaos, Creativity, and Cosmic Consciousness as you may recall.

 

This is interesting.  The perspective you are sharing here seems to relate to how the person is assessed by others and/or their actions evaluated in terms of the effect they have on the community or group.  If I understand you correctly, they are considered translaw or prelaw solely in terms of their subsequent effect on the LL.

So it seems to me there are two issues here: whether the outlaw in question is actually motivated by a prelaw or translaw mode of consciousness; and whether or not they are acting in a manner that will break down their society or help transform it to a higher level of development. It may be possible to assess the mode of consciousness of the person separately from the consequences of their actions; in any case it would appear to be a mistake to confuse or conflate the UL and LL. I'm not sure that distinction is being made in the text you are referring to, but to me it seems important.

How would this apply to the particular “outlaw” who is the subject of this thread? She is violating norms or supposed norms of the forum – for the most part there appears to be substantial (though not universal) agreement on that point. I wonder, does she do that because she has a deep understanding of the norms, and makes a conscious decision to break them, motivated by transpersonal considerations? Or does she violate the norms because she either doesn't understand them, or has some understanding of them but chooses to dump the contents of her consciousness everywhere indiscriminately because, well, she likes to do that and fuck you?

Will Helen one day be widely considered a translaw individual who reformed the culture of Integral Naked along necessary lines to ensure its continued survival or prosperity under changed conditions?  

Another comment I want to make on this part of your post: “He happened to represent the winning side in the bigger picture, and maybe he had no vision to match that bigger picture but happened to be the right guy in the right place.  Does that make him a translaw?” Here's one way I would attempt to assess it: does he express a translaw vision? Does he present a bigger picture? And are his actions congruent with that vision?

If he didn't have such a vision, then I would say he was not a translaw individual, but nonetheless acted as a catalyst for a needed change in his society.

Spiral on, dude

arthur

---

I am seeking meaningful work.

bio: http://aqalicious.gaia.com/

I spend most of my "forum time" these days on The Integral Pod: http://pods.gaia.com/ii/

"You've never seen everything." - Bruce Cockburn

ats:

That Dynamic and Static Quality sounds very much like Transcend and Include.

Yes, except - see my response to Michael - it appears to focus on the LL effects of the person's behavior - or to focus on the properties of the society itself (as opposed to the individual) - whereas transcend and include applies to all of the quadrants.

arthur

---

I am seeking meaningful work.

bio: http://aqalicious.gaia.com/

I spend most of my "forum time" these days on The Integral Pod: http://pods.gaia.com/ii/

"You've never seen everything." - Bruce Cockburn

Vortex:

samsarasurfing:

Helene once bothered me, but then the universe karate-kicked my ass and well...why are we picking on her? The IN~crowd is troubled by the sliver in her 3rd eye? 

Remember, remember the Pi we dismembered...

L

I don't think anyone has been picking on her, but it's incredibly rude to jump into a thread and just start posting some random thought that has absolutely nothing to do with what was being discussed.

There can be a nice discussion going, and then BLAM! Dead.

Unfortunately, the only person who can do something about it, won't. Note the "I'm off to bug XXX in the dreams thread" comment. There's an integral thought for you. -V

Vortex, my hope is that Corey will eventually tell us why an action (or conscious inaction) is being taken (or not) in this case; that would tell us more about how the rules are being interpreted and enforced (or not) by the Powers That Be. I highly value understanding and transparency (beats the fuck out of preparency, frankly). 

Louis: Judging by your comments, clearly you are sensitive to the exclusionary effects of group dynamics, and the hurtful effects that can have on individuals - and those are important considerations.  However, I also consider it important to take into account the effects of the behavior of individuals on group dynamics, and for actions to be taken - when necessary - that protect the group space for the benefit of all. 

This is, of course, subject to interpretation in individual cases - but to be honest, it blows my mind that (if I'm reading you correctly) you seem to consider the dynamics surrounding both Helene and Pi to be cases of the group prosecuting individuals due to unhealthy "lord of the flies" dynamics on the part of the collective. To me it appears that you are only considering the interests of the individual and failing to take into account legitimate, healthy needs of the group (which of course is a group of individuals who come together for particular purposes).

arthur

---

I am seeking meaningful work.

bio: http://aqalicious.gaia.com/

I spend most of my "forum time" these days on The Integral Pod: http://pods.gaia.com/ii/

"You've never seen everything." - Bruce Cockburn

adastra:

Will Helen one day be widely considered a translaw individual who reformed the culture of Integral Naked along necessary lines to ensure its continued survival or prosperity under changed conditions?  

Another comment I want to make on this part of your post: “He happened to represent the winning side in the bigger picture, and maybe he had no vision to match that bigger picture but happened to be the right guy in the right place.  Does that make him a translaw?” Here's one way I would attempt to assess it: does he express a translaw vision? Does he present a bigger picture? And are his actions congruent with that vision?

If he didn't have such a vision, then I would say he was not a translaw individual, but nonetheless acted as a catalyst for a needed change in his society.

Michael and Arthur

As Arthur says, the Zuni guy would be prelaw, albeit a beneficial prelaw, if he inadvertently helped to improve his community while coming from a lower level of consciousness.   

But you're spot on with your point, Michael:  a community would generally be unable to distinguish a prelaw from a translaw, because of the inability of lower levels of consciousness to comprehend higher.  Apart from Jesus's reception by HIS community, Wilber's more mundane examples are relevant - the 60's counter-culture translaws were resisted and then in turn resist integral... So, Arthur, your question is unanswerable:  Helen's approach may be a radical post-post-modernist method of engaging in internet discourse (replacing engagement with soliloquy?), and our tedious back and forth-ing may turn out to be obsolete...  How would we know?

btw Michael, I picked up a copy of Lila from the bookstore on my way home today... Obviously I wasn't ready for it the first time round.

 

---

'This is all the time you'll ever have'.
~ Dr Hannibal Lecter

Still, David, even if she were post-post-ad-infinitum-whatever, if we're unable to comprehend it, then there is still no benefit to this forum from her rambling in unwanted ways.

I'm assuming you're just talking theory. Saying that we can't act on something unless we have such a lofty perspective would be ridiculous. We'd be paralyzed by inactivity no matter what our memetic center of gravity.

Liz

---

Upgrade to ISC!
http://integralinstitute.org/public/static/multispirit.aspx
http://pods.gaia.com/ii

The self-understanding inherent in second-tier consciousness should make it possible, at least in theory, to determine whether someone is operating in a precon/prelaw or transcon/translaw manner - whereas in first-tier this wouldn't be possible, given that each altitude considers their own position to be THE correct one. 

In any case, I'm not interested in engaging in an endless debate over whether Helen's contributions to the forum are "post-post-modernist" or "preconventional  babble."  The fact that I never see her engage in conventional discourse, and that she refuses (or is unable) to rationally discuss the issue of her forum behavior when it is brought up in a thread such as this one, seems quite revealing to me.  Further, I see little evidence that she is going around dropping pithy koans into threads that are blowing minds and blasting people into nondual enlightenment or some such.  What I see - perhaps due to the limitations of my own consciousness - is the output of a babbling clown-troll (or someone doing their best, from whatever stage of consciousness, to emulate one); and a forum which (unlike most green forums or groups I've seen) appears, interestingly, to be incapable of dealing with such a phenomenon.

In any case, I'm getting REALLY FUCKING BORED with this whole issue.  Helene's behavior, I would venture to suggest - given years of evidence to the contrary - is not going to change.  Opinions on that behavior have been expressed and discussed ad nauseaum (and will likely continue to be).  The I-I blog has revealed that the PTB are aware of this thread. 

So either:

- I-I will do nothing and say nothing
- I-I will do nothing and explain why
- I-I will take some action without explanation
- I-I will take some action and explain it

To me, doing AND saying nothing seems like the worst possible scenario.



Time to pok me nose somewhere and get craziiiiiiiiiiiiieeeeeeee...

arthur

---

I am seeking meaningful work.

bio: http://aqalicious.gaia.com/

I spend most of my "forum time" these days on The Integral Pod: http://pods.gaia.com/ii/

"You've never seen everything." - Bruce Cockburn

tamgoddess:

Still, David, even if she were post-post-ad-infinitum-whatever, if we're unable to comprehend it, then there is still no benefit to this forum from her rambling in unwanted ways.

I'm assuming you're just talking theory. Saying that we can't act on something unless we have such a lofty perspective would be ridiculous. We'd be paralyzed by inactivity no matter what our memetic center of gravity.

Liz

Oh, I'm quite clear that we need to stop spamming.  Mike's idea is the best.  I'm all for a practical step.  I'm just whiling away the time with the rest of you, speculating about Zunis and stuff.....Though if Mike's suggestion was implemented and I was voted as being off-topic, would I be entitled to defend myself by saying that Michael and I have been exploring the concept of the outlaw and relating that to the need to defend a community against spamming?   Or would I just have to take my therapia?

   

---

'This is all the time you'll ever have'.
~ Dr Hannibal Lecter

David, I'm afraid it's not my thread to say!

At the risk of getting in trouble with Arthur, I think he's totally gotten over the Helen thing, but he now seems to be working on getting annoyed with everyone else for continuing to chatter about it. You could either take pity and stop, or continue and let this be yet Another Fucking Growth Opportunity for him as an exercise in letting go.

Liz

---

Upgrade to ISC!
http://integralinstitute.org/public/static/multispirit.aspx
http://pods.gaia.com/ii

oh who cares about arthur, he will sooner or later do wotever taheck he wants..

it's a curious thing, yous' posts are , on the one hand i'm told to 'hit the road jack', on the other? wots up with  the use of BIG WORDS!?  i mean how can i understand anything, when phrazes sprinklled with words  like "solilqoy" are tossed around the sentences, next to a 'post-post-post?!' wot is that? i'm sure everyone remembers my webster's dictionary is nowhere to be found!

h

Um, you know there are dictionary's online yes?

www.dictionary.com.

For example....wotever = whatever

---

In a black and white picture....there's a lot of grey junk

You have made the mistake of thinking that Helen actually wants to engage in dialog, Vortex. This is just one of the tactics she uses to continue to reel people in. Of course, you're probably just using this opportunity to show what a "troll" she is, rather than actually buying the fake interaction pleas. She can write coherent posts; she chooses not to.

Fortunately for the success of her tactics, as people get hip to them there are always newbies who are afraid to exclude anyone, who are her new rubes. and the dysfunctional cycle continues.

Liz

---

Upgrade to ISC!
http://integralinstitute.org/public/static/multispirit.aspx
http://pods.gaia.com/ii

Okay, this is getting silly.  That mine is the 254th response in this thread, is outright ridiculous.  I really wanted to keep some distance from this and let y'all work this out for yourselves (for your sake and for mine... i'd like you guys to be allowed to self-organize as much as possible, not to mention that i am just one of about 1.5 people responsible for keeping IN alive), but obviously it seems Helen is either unwilling or unable to respond directly to the issue (which, to me, would be as simple as saying "i see where you guys are coming from, i will try to keep my posts relevent to the subject matter at hand...." or however that translates in Helenese.)  So, now i am stepping in, for the sake of all those really fascinating posts that aren't being written because of this damn thread.

Helen, Road Rules state: “If you’re routinely causing a disturbance, or not living up the Road Rules, you will very probably be asked to leave the forum.”

Whether you are living up to the "Speak from your Highest Self" rule is impossible for me to say, nor is it relevent as far as i can tell.  It is obvious from this 254-post thread that a disturbance is definitely being caused.  So please, try to keep your posts relevent.

I do not think you are intentionally disrupting the community, you've been here too long and i do personally value your very unique presence on this forum.  And i think you are totally capable of reflecting on this, acknowledging what these people are trying to tell you, and adapting your behavior accordingly.

Folks, if you have a serious issue with any of Helen's posts (or anyone else's for that matter) hit the Report Abuse button.  If enough complaints are received on any given post, we will delete it (on a case by case basis, to be decided by us.  By "us" i suppose i mean me.)  If anyone receives consistent complaints, they will receive a stern talking to, i tell you what.  And if that doesn't work, i will send Yotam to your house to rough you up real good.

And please, please, please do NOT abuse the report abuse.  Inquire within your self, your deepest self, why the post is bothering you so much before you click that button.  3-2-1 that shit.  Let's not get trigger happy people.

I love you all!

---

__________________________

Corey W. deVos (dj rekluse)
Brand Manager, Integral Naked
Audio Manager, Integral Institute
Managing Editor, KenWilber.com
__________________________