you got it David! winking back atchya!;)

i see, everyone's been busy racking up their points, eh?

for the record? i soo am new Ken books reader! i mean why would i want to know that retro romatic's agendas got them  all twisted up, over the fact their agendas were fattaly flawed!? wotever:(

for the record? i don't sit around and smoke doves because i perfer to watch them fly out of my third eye:)

Monica, youre concern about my un-focused-ness is quite legit.!  today is second day of sunday for me! i swear it...it happens! so how 'bout you? tell us a bit about your self...share stuff. have an  ILP practice going on?

i got the drift about accusing me of being a witch. i happens:) was even compelled to purchase and wear a few times the star of david pentagram..'woman empowerment thing' . besides, the wicans i hung 'round with for a spell (at the nearby university - as one of their 'interest evening groups') were the most educated, the nicest bunch-flakes i ever met ... their main concern was to 'heal all'.

i would share something but my lips are  you don't really want to hear one of the funniest 'been talking to witch, admiring her pentegram while she smiled funny/strange story,  now do yous'?

h

 

Ramsses:

What a brilliant post, Mike (mroark). We do have moderators, don't we? This is what moderators are for. Controversial posters who relentlessly antagonize a substantial body of the forum should be put to a vote, put on probation, or banned. The forum administrator needs to address this issue.

In theory we do have moderators (facilitators, in I-I speak), however, we've gone through some morphing. Arthur, Michael, Mary, Rhonda and I are technically still mods, but we don't have the power to do much except edit posts, whereas we used to be able to delete posts and put people on moderation, though we only did that once, with permission from IN. Only IN can take someone off here, restrict their actions, or move or delete posts.

Most of us have indicated that we feel it's time for some others to be facilitators of the IN forum for a few reasons: we're perceived as a clique, and rightly so, at this point. We're close friends who've been here awhile, and it's just too easy to trigger people with that. It's not productive. It doesn't matter what level we're operating from, it's not going to work for the folks in the forum. I've been projected onto so many times, I'm a big white square screen!

The other reason is simply that we are tired of it. So Corey has asked just that we keep an eye on things and report stuff like threads crashing and stuff like that. We would never do anything without full disclosure to the person whose post we changed. I think I've done this once or twice when asked to by the poster, but it hasn't happened in months.

Corey is the person who is really in charge of this forum, and if and when he gets around to it, he'll do or not do something about Helen. I don't know what IN plans to do about facilitating this forum. I think they are really not that concerned about it, as they have other forums that are more important to them. Frankly, I'm pretty sure they think we're ungovernable, and have given up! But we have so little communication with them, we're virtually as in the dark as everyone else.

Hope this clears it up. If I got anything wrong, it's my own fault, and I can't really speak for the other facilitators.

Liz

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Please note, that I'm on a bit of a time frame difference from the bulk of posters here so this post harks back a little in its address....

Kessels,

The excerpt you quote from Liz is a careful and considerate reaching out to Helene. It rings sane and true. If you read my whole post you'll see that I actually agree that Helene is problematic and that curtailing her freedoms to shout fire at will in the Integral auditorium is perfectly acceptable provided that the forum is quite clear on her culpability. I'm not sure I felt this culpability had been widely established. I am more so now.

As to my exasperation in reading Liz's response to Gene. There's something that bugs me greatly about a logic that runs,'I'm not going to answer your points because you're reactive. It's not that I'm evading your points, I just don't want to waste my time'. Well Liz may or may not be wrong in her underlying views, but as argument and communication I find that simply vacuous. It is certainly not respectful. Why could Liz not have referred Coppersun to the post you excerpt?

Along with that I feel uncomfortable with the invoking of the, 'powers that be'. This is not the first time and it seems an abnegation of responsibility - a calling out to teacher, and a disrespect for the forum and its members because they don't happen to immediately fall in line with what must be done as per Liz and Arthur. As more that one post from Liz has it, 'the decision has been made [ by the powers... ] that the forum is ungovernable' This to me is hyperbolic. It seems more likely that the decision has been made to cede the forum some responsibility for itself as befits a group of intelligent aware adults. And perhaps as experimental play. I mean aren't you guys supposed to be the cutting edge...

Anyway enough of Tam and Arthur. I hope they recognize that I mean no personal offense at any point. I admire Tam's sensitivity and enjoy Arthur's wit as well as substantially agreeing with them that Helene constitutes spam. How that might be dealt with most creatively is the matter that should exercise a forum with pretensions to being Integral.

What aspect of my post the rest of your post addresses I'm not sure Kessels. Like you I feel the forum needs to be able to discuss and debate unimpeded. Like you I regard it as acceptable that action be taken if required.

What I am sure of is that responsibility within an Integral framework cuts both ways. We are our brother's keeper. Pointing to the door and thundering 'begone' should only occur after exploring a number of other options. Where o' where is the tantra of practice. The poetics of radical intimacy? :-)

Anyway, I'm starting to get sensitive to all these calls to lighten up. Could well be just what the doctor ordered.

Castel, I'm not sure what responsibility I have that you think I'm abdicating. Or are you talking to Kessels? I'm not clear, sorry. I have no power to change anything to abdicate. I was simply letting Ramsses know what the curent moderator status was. I never wrote this: 'the decision has been made [ by the powers... ] that the forum is ungovernable'. I said that my best guess was they felt that way. I never intended it to be some sort of abdication or pronouncement of the Truth. Indeed, what I was trying to convey was that I have no more idea than anyone else who pays attention to the forum what the folks at IN think.

As far as answering Coppersun, I'm ready to engage when he is is, if he cares to. Perhaps I'm not always clear (and everyone puts words through their own filters). But I've been in those sorts of "discussions" before, with people who are pissed off, and they rarely turn out well. I'm just not that skillful that I can turn that sort of thing around. I got the sense he was pissed off (triggered, if you will), as we all get, so I decided not to take it any further.

I will ask, with all sincerity, what you think I still need to say on the subject. I don't think there is much (back to the party, David and Michael!). Maybe you think I've dismissed someone/s as unworthy to talk to, but I assure you, when someone comes to me with a clear desire to enter into respectful conversation, I'm there. I'd have thought everyone was heartily sick of reading about my opinions by now, indeed. God, I am.

Liz

---

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MichaelD:

Mascha:

Monifaye, looks like your reply to MichaelD disappeared. So I'll give it another shot.

Quote MichaelD: Here’s a ‘solution’ I’d like to see tried: Add yet another forum to the Integral Naked section. Call it something like…Altitude Attitudes. Where attendance is earned rather than paid for by subscription. …Second tierians only admittance. This would foster the second tier dialog space so many here aspire to and crave for, and also be a good experiment and proof that Spiral Dynamics, and Integral Theory in general really works. The right to post there could be determined by nominations or sponsors, and/or competency tests, such as the much touted Integral Psychograph. (I have yet to actually see the test itself). And so that particular forum could be the altitude attractor for the rest of the merely green and lower participants to aspire to and learn to emulate. The elite that shows the rest of us the way forward…

You're kidding, right? M

Yep

Tongue planted firmly in cheek on that one…

Anyone who knows me from the old days will know that a personal bugaboo is the elitism attendant upon integralism. I’ve decided to just have fun with it at this point…since it is actually rather amusing overall. Sorry if my humor is a bit too dry and obscure…

Still my suggestion is perfectly serious in the sense that I’d love to see such an elite forum in action. Just for the entertainment value alone…

But then this thread is quite entertaining too. I hope you all don’t take any of this too seriously. If you do, then my advice is to use the seriousness you feel around this sort of thing to be grist for the everlovin’ shadowmill… not much else can come of it IMO…

Been here done this…

hehehe...I'm sure you'll be pleased to know that I just gave Helen the address of your forum and encouraged her to join. 

arthur

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I am seeking meaningful work.

bio: http://aqalicious.gaia.com/

I spend most of my "forum time" these days on The Integral Pod: http://pods.gaia.com/ii/

"You've never seen everything." - Bruce Cockburn

Liz,

Damn this does enter into tricky waters. The word clusterfuck comes to mind. Here are my quick thought notes on the matter:

You, I, Coppersun, are all reactive. The forum is reactive. The world is reactive. What do we do.

There has to be some sort of establishment of a non- reactive space and the poise and patience to keep circling/falling back to it. The trouble being that poise and patience itself assumes non-reactivity. Ha.

None of us are really equipped to reason our way through reactivity. None of us are that strong, smart, above it all. Not me anyhow.

So I guess all we may do is keep at our worthy aims while continuing to cut each other some slack. (and not be too worthy about our 'worthy aims', natch).

And relax a little on the reasoning, on the wording our way through it to some defined aim.

Oh, yeah, metta, that's my only trick when the knots get too tight. God up.

Which is to say, in answer to your question, you needn't say another word, though, I certainly don't tire of your thoughts. They are read with interest when the ground is strong and the delivery clean. And when not, well I guess I'll have to try and cut you that same slack you might have to allow me.

Its all the damn same: attention, openness, patience: conscious action inseparable.

You can let me know if thats all just too pat and you were looking for another answer.

adastra:

hehehe...I'm sure you'll be pleased to know that I just gave Helen the address of your forum and encouraged her to join. 

 

   D'oh!!!  

 

 

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HeartMind.us

i think this has been a productive thread.

here's my conclusion. the backlash from banning helen would be more difficult to ignore than helen :)

love,

bryan

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Holla at a Buddha if you see him in the street

People not knock it off. This is a bullshit thread.

Adastra and Liz are playing a joke on you.

They are not serious

 

After reading about the sixth or seventh response down the thread. I realized that Adastra is bullshitting.

 

I peeped your whole card bro, knock it off and confess!

 

TO BAND HELENE FROM THIS FORUM IS LIKE BANNING DAVE CHAPPELE FROM THE DAVE CHAPELLE SHOW.

 

coppersun:

there's a reason you're torn. there is a desire for helene to conform and there is desire for arthur to own his own shit.  (why can't he use the scroll bar as easily as you do.)  it's dysfunctional.

This is from several pages back; sometimes I'm away for a weekend and come back to find a multivoiced novella here . . .

Anyway, Gene, to clarify why I am torn: I am not sure that restricting Helen to the seventh circle is the best solution here, although I think it's a reasonable suggestion. While I may find it easy to scroll past some of Helen's writing, I also respect the opinions of several others here who that find Helen's off-topic spammish postings detract from a conversation and dissuade people from engaging in threads. I have to admit that I have seen threads dwindle away after her multiple spammish contributions ... Yet I enjoy Helen's presence here. It is for these reasons that I am conflicted.

My hope is that we would come up with a solution that would apply to everyone here, and not just Helen -- to anyone who starts overgracing  a thread with too many spammy tangential ramblings. I suggested in my previous post here that we might give the threadstarter the means to block any spammer from posting on their thread, but only after the threadstarter publicly asks the spammer to chill. Only I don't know if that's possible to do here.

And Girard: Dave Chapelle had his own comedy show that was, in effect, taken away from him yet still sold to viewers as the Dave Chapelle Show. Helen may have her own show in some sense, but I don't envision IN stealing her philosophies, revoking all her posting privileges, and then repackaging this IN forum as the Helen Show ... Unless you see something I do not see.

But then, it's now the wee hours where I live, dreamtime approaches, and this thread is slowly snaking my plane. Really, anything might happen ...

And Bryan -- you may be right ...

Sigh, and zzzzz,

Mary

 

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Let the beauty we love be what we do.
There are hundreds of ways to kneel and kiss the ground.

~Rumi

Castel:

What aspect of my post the rest of your post addresses I'm not sure Kessels. Like you I feel the forum needs to be able to discuss and debate unimpeded. Like you I regard it as acceptable that action be taken if required.

The rest of my post did not refer to you or your post at all, sorry for any confusion. I did read your entire post, by the way; I never respond without reading everything.

It's my opinion that you (anybody) should read a thread before you start contributing to it, instead of expecting another poster to iterate his points, but maybe that's just me. (Okay, a joke now, a joke, quickly.... something with snakes, or a plane. Or both, even better.)
 

Along with that I feel uncomfortable with the invoking of the, 'powers that be'. This is not the first time and it seems an abnegation of responsibility - a calling out to teacher, and a disrespect for the forum and its members because they don't happen to immediately fall in line with what must be done as per Liz and Arthur. As more that one post from Liz has it, 'the decision has been made [ by the powers... ] that the forum is ungovernable' This to me is hyperbolic. It seems more likely that the decision has been made to cede the forum some responsibility for itself as befits a group of intelligent aware adults. And perhaps as experimental play. I mean aren't you guys supposed to be the cutting edge...

We're given responsibility, but no powers? There is such a thing as Road Rule number 6. Which is very clear, and very to the point, and very much avoided. Snakes have not boarded that plane yet.

Speaking of cutting edge (tongue in both cheeks here... no wait -- that can, and will, be explained the wrong way). One of the perks of living in Holland, is that you get to see the results of Green tolerating everything. Everything, except stating some particularly inconvenient facts that ran against our cozy multicultural society.  Because multicultural was sacred, you see? So if you remarked that most of the street violence was caused by children of Moroccan immigrants (which simply is a fact) than you were a horrible, horrible person. A Nazi. An Arthur. It didn't matter if you were addressing that because you wanted to improve the situation, including for the immigrants. You critized the multicultural society, and got Arthured for it (this was before we had snakes on planes).

Now the Blue/Orange politicians are 'correcting' the mess caused by Green, not the Arthurs. Which basicaly means that we now have snakes on planes and children of refugees in jail. Sorry if I fail to see the humor in that, and deeply sorry for supporting the Arthurs instead, who, by the way, have a better sense of humor anyway. Always.

The good thing of it all is that Holland now has nowhere to go but Yellow. The moral of it all, for me, is that we shouldn't be afraid to evoke those that have the power to apply hard measures, since that can come either out of compassion or out of (the) Blue. So let's have some fun and talk and maybe call the integral law.

But I don't really mean any of this, of course, for otherwise it wouldn't be cool, they say. And I aspire to be cool -- on-topically, edge-cuttingly so. Not serious at all, and I mean that. Seriously.

Snaking out,
Peter (but not really, just kidding)

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"All nations should be like Amsterdam" -- Ken Wilber

Banishment is such a purple / red / blue meme course of action. IN Management is not going to banish Helen to the seventh circle. Someones been watching too much Survivor.

 

I a noted and qualified jail house lawyer having served 7 to 15 in Rahway state prison, on a trumped up charge, whereby I mastered the uncommon law of this land, have been retained by St Helene to defend her against the unjust attempt to banish her to the 7^th circle.

 

I will initiate her defense forthwith, by asking questions of her chief accuser:

 

Question number 1:

 

To Adastra:

 

When exactly time and place, in your psyche did you decide this brainstorm to insult and banish St Helene?

 

 

Question 2:

 

What particular post (name, date, and thread) galvanized you to pursue this jihad against a saint of god?

 

 

Question 3:

 

What is your sexual orientation?

 

 

 

Question 4:

 

Do you have erotic fantasies about saintly woman?

 

 

Question 5:

 

Do you have erotic fantasies about transvestites in drag?

 

 

 

Question 6:

 

Do you have erotic fantasies about holy men with bald heads?

 

 

 

Question 7:

 

Did you vote for George Bush?

 

 

Question 8:

 

 

If so, what possessed you to do so?

 

 

Is George Bush a shape shifter?

 

 

Question 9

 

Do you think Vice President Chaney is a shape shifting reptile?

 

 

 

Question 10

 

 

Do you think St Helene is smarter than you?

 

 

Question 11

 

 

Where you abused as a child by a woman or your Grandmother?

 

Question 12

 

 

Are you jealous of St Helen’s wisdom?

 

 

 

 

That’s it for now

 

Please answer in a timely manner, so we can decide whether to pursue legal action against this blasphemy!

 

 

 

Girard77,

Your post had a nasty side effect, since it caused some involuntary associations in my brain. Since Napoleon was banned to the island of Saint Helena, maybe history repeats itself, only the other way around? Should we create a separate forum called Napoleon's Island?

I'm serious here, so it's not true.

Peter

PS -- That Bonaparte fellow was a bit of a disturbance, wasn't he? He wouldn't be banned nowadays, of course. That's so harsh, only sub-Green would do that.

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"All nations should be like Amsterdam" -- Ken Wilber

that settles it then! even tho Bryan, Girard, Mary and Crystallake are the goody2shoes of yous' bunch-all, it took me all this time to comb-read all your post- threads , i gots no time now to blahblah my funny, veeery  funy in fact, hinted at ealier, story  i mean i would have if i wasn't so pressed for time.......

just one clarification? ... yah, the time i found myself in subtle  'defencless against 'saddam's' wrath' - was the time of intense searching for him. and for sure i thought my visual explosion/fire meant he was a gonner/dead.

am i willing to stand by iddle in the face of abuse  and  injustice?  - not according to one of my sponteneus "I RAISE MY FIST AGAINST POVERTY! ....." and so one. which i posted way back when. a feeling-place i don't want to revist again. been there done that? Matrix knows.