hell yah! helen' s' got power!...glory be!  halleluyah! and im not even wearing my crown today:(  troy was never my cuppa tea...them endless milk baths...booooring swoons over wots' his name? ahwell, mere mortal he wos anyways. yah...seems only fair. 7 always wos  my lucky #.

maggie 

 

coppersun:

Vortex:

After seeing Helne's asinine response... I'd have to agree that maybe there needs to be a containment, or complaints sent to the moderators..... V

stop talking like that!!  people are going to wander by here and what will they think of integral then !!??

i am so embarrassed!

later,

gene

Get over it. You didn't say it.

Be embarassed for your own items, not others.

Peace

---

In a black and white picture....there's a lot of grey junk

Vortex:

coppersun:

Vortex:

After seeing Helne's asinine response... I'd have to agree that maybe there needs to be a containment, or complaints sent to the moderators..... V

stop talking like that!!  people are going to wander by here and what will they think of integral then !!??

i am so embarrassed!

later,

gene

Get over it. You didn't say it. Be embarassed for your own items, not others. Peace

I suspect gene's comment was actually intended to mock earlier comments on the representation of the forum by Helene.

BTW, Vortex, your avatar always makes me think of Howard V. Hendrix novels - that's a compliment, in case you were wondering. 

arthur

---

I am seeking meaningful work.

bio: http://aqalicious.gaia.com/

I spend most of my "forum time" these days on The Integral Pod: http://pods.gaia.com/ii/

"You've never seen everything." - Bruce Cockburn

Helene:

hell yah! helen' s' got power!...glory be!  halleluyah! and im not even wearing my crown today:(  troy was never my cuppa tea...them endless milk baths...booooring swoons over wots' his name? ahwell, mere mortal he wos anyways. yah...seems only fair. 7 always wos  my lucky #.

maggie 

Interesting points as always, Helene, but haven't you noticed that both Liz and Tam are ernestly trying to engage you in dialog? 

It reminds me of a reiki session one time, glowing chickens floated into the room and I heard a snake hissing next to my ear.  It happens.

arthur

---

I am seeking meaningful work.

bio: http://aqalicious.gaia.com/

I spend most of my "forum time" these days on The Integral Pod: http://pods.gaia.com/ii/

"You've never seen everything." - Bruce Cockburn

maryw:

coppersun:

i think that the public targeting of an individual might be violating the following term of use:

*******************************

Any conduct by you that, at the Program’s discretion, restricts or inhibits any other Member from participating on the Website within the understanding of Integral theory and ethics, will not be permitted.

*******************************

On the other hand, that "term of use" could just as well be interpreted from the point of view that Helen is inhibiting other Members from participating on this Website by being a "thread killer ..."

i have a second question to add to my first, let's see if either will get a response.

precisely how is it one person's fault that a thread dies?

note that various people have opined that helene isn't mean, or nasty. note that they have said helene sometimes hits the nail on the head, offers a great insight . . . (i still say a better batting average than most).

the response to her is a witch hunt. this thread is not a request for other people's input because when the input comes the response is more name calling more criticism and defensiveness and more singling out.

when i read through a thread and find a post that i want to respond to, i respond to it, then my post becomes the last one in the thread.  then i get to helene's post (being a "thread killer" post, does that mean it was the last one before i posted?) and i respond to that or i don't. (if i was infected helene-phobia then i wouldn't---might that be the real problem?)   in any event, my response is there and so could any one else's.  what's the dynamics of a thread killer and who's fault is it?

we've not yet reached a rational level of discussion on this.  you know where my question is going and why it won't be taken up, there is no rational basis for blaming one person and you have to own your own shit.

there's a reason you're torn. there is a desire for helene to conform and there is desire for arthur to own his own shit.  (why can't he use the scroll bar as easily as you do.)  it's dysfunctional.

later,

gene

 

 

Gene, owning one's own shit starts at home. From the Road Rules:

"5.    Before you offer your wisdom to or about others, remember that your perspective is yours, and just one of many. Can you own your perspective as a limited one? Can you distill out your clear observations from your interpretations and assessments? Are you still curious about other perspectives? Are there any shadow elements in any of your posts in the forum? Before pointing out the negatives in others, we try to clean our own house first. Don’t be afraid to make judgments—we want your opinions and judgments very much!—just try to have the next judgment that comes out of your mouth be a discernment from your Higher Self."

Your posts feel reactive to me, though that is my own judgement, of course. It's difficult to respond to a post like that, because I feel that reactivity and judgement, and that you've already decided your opinion of me (and others) and are not open to any input. It feels like a waste of time. It's not an attempt to evade your points.

I've made it a part of my forum participation to check in with the Road Rules on occasions when I feel triggered and want to post something in anger.

I don't feel the need to argue the point about Helen, since I've made mine, and feel heard by most people on every side of the issue. It is what it is. The powers that be will do something, or they won't.  What purpose does it serve to get into mud-slinging?

I'd suggest it's a pretty great thread idea, in and of itself, to ask other questions that seem to be burning for you. If you came to the table with your highest self, I'd try to be there with you.

Liz

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Upgrade to ISC!
http://integralinstitute.org/public/static/multispirit.aspx
http://pods.gaia.com/ii

At this point, I'm not in favor of banning Helene or restricting her participation to a particular room, but I am glad that this conversation is taking place.  (I'm traveling now and just discovered it).  Recently, on my "Spiral Dynamics Game" thread, Helene posted several posts which were not on topic, and I requested her to please respect my intent for the thread -- which is very specific, not meant for just general chitchat.  Her response to my request was to refer to me as 'long-faced' and 'looking for attention.'  I sent her a PM and asked her to engage with me there, but she instead replied to my PM message on the thread again.  In my opinion, the only reason she did this was to be provocative -- aggressive, or passive aggressive, however you want to put it. 

If you are not willing to engage with someone about an issue or to respect what a thread-starter is asking of you, then in my opinion you are not showing respect for the community as a whole.  This may not be the case in all instances, of course, but I think it is in this one. 

I sent Helene a second PM, but she hasn't responded to either of my messages, except to write to me again on the Spiral Dynamics thread.  In her response there, she did promise to be 'good,' and I hope she means it -- meaning simply that I hope she attempts to at least engage more with the content of a thread, instead of free-associating with a word or two and taking the conversation (so often) in unrelated directions. 

Judging by her responses to this thread, however, I do not have much hope that she will do anything of the sort. 

Balder

---

May the boundless knowledge that time presents and space allows illuminate the native perspectives of your original face.

Helene, how are you feeling with all this going on?

Here's one angle from which I can look at this mess.

So let's just say you're someone who has an amazingly rich inner life and you want to share your discoveries with others. You want to give them what you're experiencing in the interior palaces and gardens. Now, a newly rich person might start by shouting from the rooftops, "I see the Light, it's all true, the Radiant Mistress of the Universe reveals itself to me, there IS no ego, bla,bla, bla," etc. etc. Then, when people yell back for this idiot to shut up, you proceed to the market places, malls, all the while spilling over, gushing torrents of glad tidings.

I think that's what stumps the good people in this multiplex. Here they are, discussing integral whatnots at different tables, having a jolly good time exercising cognitive faculties, and suddenly - out you pop like a singing telegram from the astral plane, trilling about your latest uniomystico this a.m., sprinkling pixie dust on their meat platters, flitting from pillar to post, basically telling people, 'I'm rich, I'm rich! See? You're just reading the menus but I just ate a bucket full of manna and ambrosia, wot?! he he h.'

Is it any wonder they see this as a... hrmm, disturbance? I mean, come on, little Poziomka, you know it's a provocation. And it's been going on for years? I mean, just think about it...... don't you love it when you're talking about your favorite topic - I, me and mine - and someone butts in and says, in essence, 'Who? There is no I or me. That is simply illusory.'
Don't you think to yourself, 'Well, f**k you too, nouveau riche, nondual shmuck!'?

To get into the next stage of wealth management may be very difficult. For some it is a great discipline to just shut up, be more discriminating, more aware of the effects one has on others. Anyway, there comes a time when almost all really rich people decide to act like 'old money'. I think it gets most interesting when you start hiding the enormous heaps of wisdom you've accumulated and you find yourself playing totally different roles because you're free to change your tune.

So these are some of the thoughts i have. And one more consideration: This contentious discussion about your behavior on integral forums does create a split, a polarization, a growing rift between two factions -- those who will defend anybody's freedom of speech at all cost, and those who want to see some basic common sense restrictions enforced if all else fails.

From what I've seen, no one ever wins in these situations. Already, we have cliques consolidating. And. Helene, you and I will always be the odd birds out, no matter wot, anyhow. sooooo click on the picture to see these birds' footwear. It says so much. Best of luck to you!

________________________________

Re: Responsibility

So Liz, what are the dynamics of a thread killer? you've avoided the question completely while telling Gene that he's 'reactive', and that you needn't 'argue the point' because you've already said all you've got to say - as if argument wasn't the patient and, deft-as-one-can, re-iteration of one's view in response to the incomprehension/disagreement of another. Then you say it's all up to the powers that be. Oh dear. You might have to get your hands a little dirtier than that, TamGoddess.

And then the final, 'if you came to the table with your highest self I'd try to be there with you'. Lets unpack that, a little. First, you are saying Gene hasn't come to the table with his highest self so you have no responsibility to be there with him. Indeed you needn't even try. But if he should - and you'll be the judge of that - then you will 'try' to meet him there. Two questions arise: One, is that how the higher self works? ie. you show me yours and I'll show you mine? Two, if you have to try to reach this higher place then from what vantage point do you claim to judge it's presence/absence? I'm not saying its impossible, I'm simply curious.

At least by implication you're admitting you're being as reactive as you claim Gene to be. Moreover, this disavowal of responsibility - 'you're not being all higher selfy so why should I', is in keeping with the invoking of the, 'powers that be', who will take this dreadful responsibility off our hands and sort everything out. What crap. I believe its your/our forum and we/you have to sort it out. I don't think forum admin need get involved until some time - and further discussion - has passed.

Sorry if I sound pissed off, I simply loathe hypocrisy conscious or otherwise. And nowhere more than in the language of straight talking. AAAGH. You're most welcome to take me apart if you find evidence of it in my own thinking. I also, of course, am being a little reactive.

Moving along, I'm actually in agreement to some extent with Arthur and yourself about Helene. I think spirit/being 'Integral', is all about communication and awareness. Helene doesn’t seem to be showing much of either in her present play. If Helene is genuinely and consistently impeding the flow of forum discussion and exploration then asking her to self-edit is quite within the bounds of, 'being Integral'. In this light I like Arthur's suggestion that Helene be asked to limit her more free floating comments to a designated area of the forum, or indeed, her very own posts. And that outside of that she be asked to carefully consider the topic under discussion and post accordingly. Why not? Boundaries are life. I don't believe we're doing Helene any favors by allowing her free rein because of unexamined notions of a free spirit and inclusiveness. She might, however, need some help to make this move to greater self-control.

Indeed, I think this is where the real 'Integral' discussion lies. What is our responsibility and engagement with other forum members. I suspect that over time Helene has become more incoherent and frequent in her posts because she is largely ignored. (She has certainly become more frequent) It is surely integral to engage, to take time with others. Those who think Helene should be allowed free rein/reign should engage with Helene more. Those of us who think she shouldn't, should engage with her more. Both in her free association guise and to encourage her to think in another more cogent mode.

I believe Helene would also enjoy a wider range of register. She clearly wishes to communicate. For all the talk of the wonderful inner life Helene enjoys I wonder if it is really so much fun to spend one's time posting with such minimal response from others. Consistent with this view, on one level, at least, Helene seems to be reveling in the attention of the current situation.

This to me shifts the weight from Helene to the forum as a whole and the responsibilities we all have to each other in the forum. Our willingness to take time, connect, go out of our way. It also, I feel, suggests why so many have trouble with Arthur’s approach which offers Helene a pen to play in without really much else. Someone who is now largely ignored and patronized is perhaps only going to be ignored and patronized in a more sophisticated systemic way.

‘Ignored and patronized’. If this is so, Arthur has his legitimate beef, too. Which is to say that if he is right in his claim that Helene is seriously disruptive rather than merely aggravating - yet to be conclusively shown? - then her supporters need to show more responsibility. Claiming that Helene has a rich inner life, and that all have a right to be here is beside the point if she is seriously in the way. What then are those of us who would support Helene’s continued presence doing in real Integral terms. Simply ignoring her posts doesn’t seem to cut it somehow.

Jimtzu, as one of my all time favorite posters, I'd love to hear more from you on this matter. And Helene, sorry for speaking so bluntly and publicly. You did ask for it.

Ps Back to that 'thread killer' question.

adastra:

Interesting points as always, Helene, but haven't you noticed that both Liz and Tam are ernestly trying to engage you in dialog? 

It reminds me of a reiki session one time, glowing chickens floated into the room and I heard a snake hissing next to my ear.  It happens.

arthur

ROFL. See we can't have a proper bunfight so long as we keep our collective sense of humour.

Liz

Castel,

Liz has already explained it.

tamgoddess:

Helen-

There seems to be a situation where threads get hijacked by inappropriate postings of yours. What I have noticed is that you will post several things, unrelated to the topic at hand, and the thread will simply die. It's a conversation-killer to post something that doesn't continue on with the ideas presented. I and others have tried to tell you this, to no avail. You simply won't discuss it. It's so frustrating for me to see this happen. I like everyone involved, and can see their value to this space. But what I also see is that this forum is dying because of it. People with serious topics to discuss simply take them to one of the other forums. When you do this, you're hurting the forum, in spite of your luminous words that can spread joy and love. This isn't what you intend, I am certain of that.

I'm not trying to defend Liz here, since she is fully capable of doing that herself. I would like to offer my support to her view, though. Some may not experience Helene's behaviour as a disturbance, but I do, and apparently so do many others. One snake flew over the cuckoo's nest, on a plane?

There are not a lot of places I can go for online second-tier discussions, and there are even less offline occasions. That makes the I-I forums very valuable to me, and I simply ask, no demand, respect for that, and for those who feel the same way. I haven't been posting lately, which certainly has to do with the way many threads digress or slip into first-tier dominance, but I want my piece of the integral rock. I can have first-tier discussions anywhere, don't need the I-I forums for that. I'm not denying the right of others to have first-tier discussions, but there are plenty of other sites for that.

And yes, I also think the forums should be actively moderated. Part of being healthy integral is knowing when to act from a Blue level, like it or not.

Peter

---

"All nations should be like Amsterdam" -- Ken Wilber

I am a language teacher. It is my business to diagnose and promote linguistic connectivity.

I really like Helen because she is always very novel. Joycean, as was written, and mercurial.

Her linguistic connectivity to others on these forums is left entirely up to the imagination of the reader.

Is this because she has the talent to do so? Has she transcended to another level?

If we asked a cubist painter to do a realistic pencil portrait of your face, and it came out like a carbon copy of a b&w photo of your face, then I would say, "Whoa man! Cube it up, duuuuuude!"

Our cubist gives us evidence of having transcended.

Or, say, the Aikidoist who has a very flowery style in the dojo. Let`s ask him to reproduce a textbook form, or better yet, stick him in a barfight, and see if that floweriness has thorns.


Which is to say, all of this criticism of Helen indicates to me that she has not adequately demonstrated a grasp of basic techniques, whatever those techniques may be: grammatical, logical, interpersonal, PR-ical...


She should at least be able to fool people into thinking she`s connected in some way to their concerns, enough to put us at ease with her presence.

Or, maybe that`s just because I live in Japan, and I have been assimilated by the Hive mind of Tokyo.

Here, we call it reigi, not reiki. And reigi means "being polite." Not causing waves... There is something to be said for this.


I really love the concept of the Pre/Trans, and it does not seem too difficult to figure out which side of the / someone is on, and to deal with them in the proper way.

I think of the Green Meme as being not just incapable of differentiating this out, but of being unwilling.


If Helen wants to show us that she has the discipline to be part of a community, then she could do us the favor of connecting with us in a way that doesn`t make so many people so jittery.


I do like your zaniness, Helen, but, to reiterate, I think you need to augment your study of reiki with some understanding of reigi.

Hello Andygoheen,

Thank you very much for your words.

I'd love it if everybody would read your post carefully. Twice. I think you're making some very important points, and in a beautiful and refreshing way.

Peter

---

"All nations should be like Amsterdam" -- Ken Wilber

Mascha:

This contentious discussion about your behavior on integral forums does create a split, a polarization, a growing rift between two factions -- those who will defend anybody's freedom of speech at all cost, and those who want to see some basic common sense restrictions enforced if all else fails. From what I've seen, no one ever wins in these situations. Already, we have cliques consolidating. 

Indeed so. Its good to try to take in the bigger picture, isn't it - to identify and honour different perspectives...  If, for a moment, we take out the personalities involved, what we have is an ordinary ole discussion about the internet phenomenon known as spamming.  As Arthur mentioned, spamming is a ubiquitous problem for all the countless forums out there.  I assume (I don't know, but I assume) that people don't usually mean to spam.  But:  Spam Happens. Many forums simply treat spammers as a nuisance which needs to be dealt with like a virus, and kick people out.  Its to the credit of this forum that we're giving the issue more thought than that.  So, maybe its less of a 'mess', Mascha, and more of an outcome you'd expect of a bunch of soul-searching types? 

Purely technically, many (not all) of Helen's posts do meet the criteria for forum spam, as Balder, who'd win most people's vote for Most Reasonable Forum Member and is not part of any clique that I know of, has confirmed in his post here.    We've had spam by others in the past, sporadically, and we may get it in the future. So.  Sticking with the technical issue of spam, how should a forum which aspires to be transformational and integral handle it?

Like Liz/Tiki, I find that a little playfulness helps things along no end.  Why not translate the spam issue into an analogy....

Your neighbour keeps blocking your drive with their car.  You politely ask them to desist, but they just shrug and carry on.

What are your options?

- Continue to try to persuade them verbally, hoping that one day they'll see your point of view.

- Live with it, on the grounds that people are entitled to park where they wish. 

- Move house.

- Go round and shout at them/threaten them/beat them up

- Call the authorities and ask them to intervene

- Invite them round to dinner, and on the basis of your burgeoning friendship, appeal to them to be more neighbourly

- Sneak out after dark and throw paint on their vehicle each time they offend

- etc etc

Quite a few vMemes/lines/levels at play in those options, aren't there....  I could imagine any of those courses of action by the people I know, depending on personality.  Me, I'd try the dinner option if only Helen didn't live on the other side of the world (food parcel? )  Similarly, in the case of spam, different members are going to favour different responses.  It would contravene integral theory to expect there to be agreement.  This thread can no more end in agreement than our previous thread did, however long ago it was.  So, what can we get out of this discussion?   As a minimum, an opportunity for UL and LL reflection, valuable in itself, hopefully offsetting the polarization which Mascha refers to.  Maybe an agreement to disagree?  As for a decision, well - I doubt it, for the reasons I've just outlined, and also because the forum doesn't operate on the basis of consensus.  Which means that Arthur's thread won't achieve its specific aim, but that nonetheless, it has had some value.

 ~ David

 

 

---

'This is all the time you'll ever have'.
~ Dr Hannibal Lecter

I also feel that the majority of her posts are INAPPROPRIATE.  The posts lack respect for the discussion that the thread starter desired to pursue.  In this thread, all of her responses, to me, were inappropriate.  The ground rules ask us to come from our "highest selves."  I think that phrase should be edited to "highest Functional selves."

I'm sensing that some of you are falling into the pre-trans fallacy.  Remember that any person can have spiritual experiences in the gross, subtle, causal, non-dual, etc, in every level in Spiral Dynamics.  I feel that a lot of her spiritual comments are coming from Purple and Red, and also of more importance, Dysfunctional Purple and Red.  While she may indeed be experiencing spiritual experiences, they are often pre-rational and dysfunctional.

Her expression also seem to come from an unhealthy Red.  Red is one of my favorites to comment on or emulate on this board because so many of you seem to be trying soooo hard to hide Red, when everyone is Red.  Used in a healthy manner, it causes us to pursue fame and fortune and leadership.  It makes us feel better than others. (and it's ok to think that, if thought approptiately)  She seems to be doing it as a cry for attention.  At some point, her unhealthy behavior has to be addressed.  It wouldn't want to be her enabler.

Only the IN Staff knows how many people complain about her posts and how many people left because of her.  At some point, they need to form a 2nd tier committee to discuss the future of IN with Helene.  For example:

Purple: How do you ensure that people post in a healthy purple?  How do we keep the greatest amount of members happy and rallying behind IN?  Sometimes, I feel much like IN is my favorite basketball team, and I want it to thrive.

Red:  How do we allow members to voice their opinions without it becoming dysfunctional or disrespectful of the intent of the thread?  A dystinction between functional and dysfunctional Red must be made and clarified.  How do we enforce these dysfunctional Reds without upsetting them too much that they leave without transforming themselves?

Blue: How do we construct enforceable rules for IN?  There must be some (like not hacking the site, etc...)  How do we keep rule followers in Blue happy and able to grow?  (and not leave IN in disgust?)

Orange:  How do we maximize the usefulness of this site for the most members and retain their membership to maximize our income?  How do we ensure that the most people can grow the fastest?  How do we maximize and retain membership?

Green:  How do we ensure that everyone try to live harmoniously with each other?  How do we ensure that everyone act in a rational way and with respect for each other? 

Yellow:  How do we help everyone recognize each of the 1st tier levels, and be able to make the distinction of healthy and unhealthy manifestations?

Turquoise:  How do we do all of the above???

I implore the IN staff to get cracking on these issues and lay down the law.

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myspace.com/zentaimusic