jimtzu:

it's easier to talk the (integral) talk than to walk the (integral) walk. 

to lay the "dying" of IN on the shoulders of one person is a bit much.  what other reasons could there be?  hmmmm?

Why don't you share your perspective on that, Jimtzu?  hmmmm?

arthur

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I am seeking meaningful work.

bio: http://aqalicious.gaia.com/

I spend most of my "forum time" these days on The Integral Pod: http://pods.gaia.com/ii/

"You've never seen everything." - Bruce Cockburn

I second David's comments, and add my own words of warning.  A sensitive issue like this is sure to drive up shadows.  Let us all take care to make sure that (1) we are in fact responding from our highest self and (2) we are taking care to remember that intonation is absent from written text and what may be intended as a playful challege of perspective can land with others as offensive. 

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One does not discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time. --Andre Gide

Hope is as hollow as fear. --Lao-tzu

Tiki,

Also for the record, I didn't call you an idiot - actually I feel that someone would have to be quite evolved to practice what I would see as idiot-compassion or idiot-tolerance. 

Any meaningful effort at inclusiveness is not automatically a sign of mean greenness, green has a healthy side too.

Nor is any effort at inclusiveness automatically a manifestation of healthy green.

I detect a suggestion you are placing yourself on that second tier pedestal again, suggesting I'd understand better if only I was as evolved as you? Fine, but then you need to communicate with the rest of us where we are.

Although I consider myself to be cognitively somewhere in the lower reaches of 2nd-tier, I'm not making any such claim about my overall center of gravity or particular lines other than cognitive.  Actually I doubt my ability to make such an assessment about myself (I also doubt other's ability to self-assess in this regard).  Openly sharing in this space gives people the opportunity to call me on my own limitations as they perceive them.

arthur

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I am seeking meaningful work.

bio: http://aqalicious.gaia.com/

I spend most of my "forum time" these days on The Integral Pod: http://pods.gaia.com/ii/

"You've never seen everything." - Bruce Cockburn

coppersun:

here's my shadow (and your trigger)---i don't believe you are getting offline complaints about her.

Ah.  Well now, that is a claim that I'm lying.  I answer thus: you're seeing some of that feedback in this very thread now. 

arthur

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I am seeking meaningful work.

bio: http://aqalicious.gaia.com/

I spend most of my "forum time" these days on The Integral Pod: http://pods.gaia.com/ii/

"You've never seen everything." - Bruce Cockburn

Adastra,

Don't you believe the people really different of ourselves are those giving us the most useful material to learn?

Not Hélène is very different of myself  but she is certainly one of the posters giving me the most helpful insights.  I really don't understand how we can be on Integral Naked site and deny the expression of someone, basicly respectuous and polite.

I'm against your request.

I think if we can avoid snarky condemnations of where OTHERS are speaking from and let us all speak for ourselves, that will keep it going in the right direction. So far, aside from a little bit of shadow/denial, it seems like this is a fairly healthy discussion.

I'd hate to see it degenerate.

I just don't think it's fair for a forum to have, in effect, no rules of behavior. After all, if it's not enforceable, it's not really a rule. I don't see why keeping on-topic is so controversial. Is it because we're talking about a specific person? Probably. The alternative is to pretend that we don't know who someone is talking about and talk around it. Anyone come from a family where this was done? It's pretty oppressive in its own right. Helen is invited to eneter this discussion with me and anyone else at any time, and I wouldn't think of excluding her-she does this to herself, by refusing to enter into such discussions. This is passive-aggressive behavior, which is very difficult to deal with. Try to name it head-on, and you get clobbered, like Arthur does. Try to discuss it directly, and feels really unfair, like you're talking about someone as if they aren't there. Talk to the person who's doing it? No, she won't engage. Very frustrating, no matter what your center of gravity or if trying to operate from your highest self. I don't think my highest self is all that strong, frankly, to deal so adequately with this.

What if there were five Helens, or people who were equally yet differently unable/unwilling to follow the rules? How many should/can this forum try to absorb in the name of inclusiveness? How long do we try to engage a person who refuses to engage? I think the idea of a place where she can write anything she damn well pleases is wonderful. This place would lose something without her. But I sure would love to know who's actually responded to a thread without wading through 5 of her off-topic responses first.

I have a general feeling that this forum is mostly abandoned by the powers that be, in their knowledge that it's unrulable and therefore not worth wasting their time on. They did, however, add a space where people are free not to have rules, and that's where people who really can't abide them should be. It doesn't really seem like punishment to me, more like appropriate placement.

If this doesn't go anywhere, that's ok. I don't have any attachment to the outcome, with the exception of feeling a bit protective of Arthur at times. I do appraciate everyone's perspective, even those who clearly disagree with me. This is something that you folks have taught me through the time we've been here: non-reactivity. Of course, I'm still working on it, but I do see growth in all of you as well. A couple of years ago, this would have been a slugfest by now. You people are wonderful.

Here's to our continued awakening together.

Liz

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Upgrade to ISC!
http://integralinstitute.org/public/static/multispirit.aspx
http://pods.gaia.com/ii

The Minotaur Song  (Perhaps a theme song for this thread?)

Straight from the shoulder
I think like a soldier
I know what's right and what's wrong
He knows what's right and what's wrong.

I'm the original discriminating buffalo man
And I'll do what's wrong as long as I can
He'll do what's wrong as long as he can

I live in a labyrinth under the sea
Down in the dark as dark as can be
I like the dark as dark as can be
He likes the dark as dark as can be

I'll even attack you or eat you whole
Down in the dark my bone mills roll
Porridge for my porridge bowl
Porridge for his porridge bowl

I'm strong as the earth from which I'm born
He's strong as the earth from which he's born
I can't dream well because of my horns
He can't dream well because of his horns

Moo

I'm strong as the earth from which I'm born
He's strong as the earth from which he's born
I can't dream well because of my horns
He can't dream well because of his horns

A minotaur gets very sore
His features they are such a bore
His habits are predicta-bull
Aggressively relia-bull, bull, bull

I'm strong as the earth from which I'm born
He's strong as the earth from which he's born
I can't dream well because of my horns
He can't dream well because of his horns

I'm the original discriminating buffalo man
And I'll do what's wrong as long as I can
He'll do what's wrong as long as he can

 

To the shadows,

Michael

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I had nothing but myself with which to create the world;
Out of myself the world was made.
E.J. Gold, 1978

sticks and stones can brake my bones, banishing helen words to the 7th circle will place her even deeper into the thinga-ma-jig of heavenly transcendental soul, or wotever realm

h

We're probably all going to hell for this. Glad you have the equanimity you always do, Helen.

Liz

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Upgrade to ISC!
http://integralinstitute.org/public/static/multispirit.aspx
http://pods.gaia.com/ii

Helene:

sticks and stones can brake my bones, banishing helen words to the 7th circle will place her even deeper into the thinga-ma-jig of heavenly transcendental soul, or wotever realm

h

Cool, so even you are down with the idea, eh?    Helen, my dear, I figured out some time ago that you're unbreakable - or is that unbrakeable?    Either way, let it never be said that there are snakes on your plane. 

Sounds to me like such a move could only benefit your spiritual progress, then, as well as (in my considered opinion and that of some of the other thread contributors) benefiting the forum - perhaps the metta I've been doing for you is paying off.

arthur

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I am seeking meaningful work.

bio: http://aqalicious.gaia.com/

I spend most of my "forum time" these days on The Integral Pod: http://pods.gaia.com/ii/

"You've never seen everything." - Bruce Cockburn

Boy, this thread is really interesting. In fact, wow. It says it all.

Larry King quotes someone who said "I never learned a thing while I was speaking." Which obviously points to the listening aspect of dialogistics. A fancy word I may have just used in a sentence for the first time, which I hope I have used correctly, and all of which leads to my next exact point:

You really can learn a hell of a lot from speaking. Especailly when someone else listens,

 . . . and erm, speaks back.

This lesson has just been taught and learned by all here. Ya just gots ta have both.

That said, I am still on the fence about Helene being a Hamburger . . . .

But we love'r just the same.

...Wot?

T

 

 

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"With whom or with what are you in communion at this moment?"
. . ."I?" he replied, almost mechanically. "Why not with anyone or anything."
"You must be a marvel . . . if you are able to continue in that state for long."
-Constantin Stanislavsky

Wow.....

Troublesome subject, Interesting thread......

I can see both sides of the coin here. I understand, ALL of us can go off on a tangent here and there, and that's ok - it happens. That, however, doesn't usually kill a thread IME.

On the other hand, simply posting some off topic....musing(?) can often kill a thread. It may be frustrating, esp. when the original poster was looking for perspective, or information.

In that regard, maybe that does require a banishment (or a restriction). After all, someone IS intefereing with someone else's advancement or information by killing the thread with some nonsensical post.....

My problem is.....how does that work? If someone is paying to be here, and you limit them to one area, whereas others paying the same amount can venture to other areas.....not really an integral solution in my mind.

I agree it *could* be annoying to some. I agree it *has* killed threads, but....other than a clear violation of the TOS.....I don't know how you would go about stopping it. I don't even know for sure *IF* it should be stopped.

Greg

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In a black and white picture....there's a lot of grey junk

We've had several free spirits on IN; poets and ramblers alike

I have never NOT responded on a thread whose topic sings to me because of the off-topic posts of others.

Mindfulness means being able to stay on-topic in spite of an inch or so of off-topic screen space. My attention span is longer than that.

I just don't read them. No big deal.

It's like sitting in a public park, and someone is dancing at the edge of your vision.
Why get annoyed because you don't like the dance?
Just look the another direction.

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All of my thoughts, like junkyard dogs, guarding scraps of nothing......
Bird York

what is the integral way forward...  that is the question.  if it can't be found in a simple area like this, how can the integral model be used in any larger context, the ones that are talked about in the threads, ie: israel/lebanon, iraq etc..  integral talk leads us to parroting the integralese of the theorists, not thinking for oneself.  an Integral Correctness comes over, concepts like 2nd tier that cloud the supposed transparency of the ego that comes with vertical transformation, of  which everyone seems to be so enamored with.   what is it really like to take mutiple perspectives in the real world.  what does transcend and include mean to you other than to shore up ones shadows and make you feel elitist by not feeling elitist.  where is this taking you, other than where you always already are.  why do these questions even have to be asked?

I've been reading the thread with some interest and I thought I'd add my own thoughts to the discussion. Apologies in advance if this post in any way seems patronizing or simplistic. I just want to make explicit the issues we seem to implicitly agree and disagree on in the individual and social spheres.

Individual

We all should take responsibility over our own postings on this forum, taking into account the reactions they might cause in others. However, it's equally important to take responsibility for our own reactions, as so eloquently expressed by Fred in his recent appearances on IN.

Do correct me if I'm wrong, but I think we can agree on this much; Don't upset, don't get upset.

Social

Having said that, I feel the one point we need to consider carefully here is the social implications of accepting/banning behaviour such as Helene's.

We can endlessly query and banter on about whether or not such posts are an expression of the poster's highest self or, simply put, spam. But's that's really aside the point. Questions we should instead look at are:

• How will potential/new members perceive these forums? How do we/I-I want them to be perceived?
  
• Complete freedom? Well-moderated discussion? On topic? Casual?
  
• How will allowing such behavior affect those of us who lack the skillful means to handle it in an appropriate way?
• What happens if off-topic posting becomes wide spread? Where do we draw the line?
• What would be the members' reaction if people start getting banned and/or censored?

Solution?

It seems to me that at least someone is upset by Helene's behavior or, ironically enough, upset about the upset, so it wouldn't feel just to simply dismiss the issue. Considering the potential wide-spread implications outlined above, I'd really like to hear from the forum admins (provided that such a group exists). I do think that there needs to be a policy for dealing with scenarios such as this, be it allowing such behavior or limiting it to the 7th circle.

Peace,
  Janne

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Janne Asmala
janne.asmala@gmail.com