The following is my own personal perception; in so far as I can, I am speaking from my highest self.

Just so there's no misunderstanding, let me begin with these observations:

Helene is a precious child of the universe.  On the Ground of Being level, Helene has the same intrinsic value as any other human being, quarks, galaxies, Vogon poetry etc.  She is a human being and I have no wish to unnecessarily hurt her feelings.

I also feel, and very strongly, that Helene functions as a spam-generator on this site, and that the forum as a whole would be much better off if she was banished to the Seventh Circle, where she could continue to express herself freely to the delight of her fans.  I am not asking for her to be banished completely from the site.

A spammer is someone who fills other people's screens with material that they perceive as unwanted garbage.  Admittedly, what is garbage to one person may be a treasure trove to others, but many people have expressed feelings about Helene's output that is quite consistent with the preceeding definition.  I know of people who have largely or entirely left the forum because, in the words of one such person "the site it totally contaminated by Helene."

Frankly I'm a little tired of people expressing this kind of opinion privately, and of being about the only person who ever says so publicly.  If you agree with me, I would invite you to share that observation here, or to PM Corey.  If you disagree, likewise, please share your opinion.

I have hesitated to be so blatant with this for a few reasons.  First, because I have often felt strongly triggered by Helene - thus indicating shadow issues.  Second, because there is a strong possibility of, metaphorically speaking, getting my head blown off.  Third, because I didn't want to risk causing some huge pointless controversy on the forum.

However, I know I'm far from the only one who feels this way; I do believe I'm speaking truth here; and I do believe that Helene is trashing this place. 

I rarely start serious threads in Integral Naked anymore, and increasingly do so in the General Community forums instead.  I also know that some people  have left (not necessarily for Helene-related reasons) for forum alternatives such as the one MichaelD set up.

I don't feel all that attached to outcome on this, and doubt if this suggestion will be taken up, but I feel I need to speak my truth on this and let the chips fall where they may. 

love and metta,

arthur

---

I am seeking meaningful work.

bio: http://aqalicious.gaia.com/

I spend most of my "forum time" these days on The Integral Pod: http://pods.gaia.com/ii/

"You've never seen everything." - Bruce Cockburn

OK. I feel very uncomfortable with this and the way you consistetyly single out Helen for personal chastisement. I haven't said anything before because I thought Helen seemed to not mind very much.

I am much more triggered by your post than I am by anything helen has ever written. I can see that as a a community we might want to exclude someone deliberatly causing hurt and harm. I have seen peoloe really connect with helen's posts on occasions. Sure she has a style that's all her own, but so do lots of people and no one is forced to read every contribution. Not sure if this version of the forum has a "block this guy" function.If so I suggest you use it.

I certainly don't think we should exclude anyone on the grounds of your (or anyone else's)personal annoyance.

I'm not going to say more because I would only end up launching the same kind of attack on you, demanding you account for your personal or relative worth and that doesn't solve anything. I do acknowledge you have put time and effort in here and have made a significant contribution in expanding things with RAM etc. I don't, hoewever think that gives you, or anyone else the right to judge who should or shouldn't be here. If Helen wasn't making connections with some people here, she'd have left long ago. A wee bit of tolerance is maybe needed here.

This feels like ganging up and bullying, I want no part in it.

Liz

Liz

I can see why you'd feel this way, Tiki, and I love you for being the deeply loving human being that you are.

I have no personal vendetta against Helen. Helen has shown a ray of light onto me several times that has been a godsend. Sometimes, she's just what the doctor ordered.

And. In order to not talk about her as if she's not here, I'll address this to her, but  publicly, so you can see my point of view as well.

Helen-

There seems to be a situation where threads get hijacked by inappropriate postings of yours. What I have noticed is that you will post several things, unrelated to the topic at hand, and the thread will simply die. It's a conversation-killer to post something that doesn't continue on with the ideas presented. I and others have tried to tell you this, to no avail. You simply won't discuss it. It's so frustrating for me to see this happen. I like everyone involved, and can see their value to this space. But what I also see is that this forum is dying because of it. People with serious topics to discuss simply take them to one of the other forums. When you do this, you're hurting the forum, in spite of your luminous words that can spread joy and love. This isn't what you intend, I am certain of that.

This is what distresses Arthur so greatly. He loves this space, and wants it to thrive. With you, if possible. It's also frustrating to say so publicly and have so many people write to him in private saying they agree. This frustration of his does come out in words that can hurt. I know that. But I agree with his sentiment, if not the word "banish," which seems harsh to me.

I believe creating the Seventh Circle was a stroke of genius. There, we can all say anything we want, without any sort of holding back. I think this is a great place for you to post when you feel that urge to express whatever comes to you. I would love to enjoy your posts again. I just can't enjoy them or respond to them when they are in inappropriate places.

If there is any way you'd be willing to actually enter into a discussion about this, I'd be thrilled. Privately or publicly, whatever you like. I hope that if this is painful to read, it can at least serve your awakening. Perhaps you're already there, and can help us with understanding that. Bless you, Helen.

And Bless you, Arthur, for being brave enough to sacrifice your need for others to think well of you in order to try to fix the forum.

Liz

---

Upgrade to ISC!
http://integralinstitute.org/public/static/multispirit.aspx
http://pods.gaia.com/ii

i have to agree with tiki on this.  that attitude is one of the reasons i don't post here anymore.  i'll continue to "lurk" and am basically staying around for the video content. 

Tiki

I agree that a wee - indeed more than a wee - bit of tolerance is certainly needed here; however, I don't think it should be indiscriminate and all-encompassing.  Surely if there is such a thing as "idiot compassion" there is such a thing as "idiot tolerance" also. 

Note that I am not suggesting Helen be banished absolutely; I'm specifically asking for her to be restricted to posting in the Seventh Circle, for the reasons I enumerated and which were (as usual) much more eloquently expressed in Tamgoddess' reply. 

This request follows attempts (in past forums) to dialog with Helen on this issue, either publicly on the forum or in PM's.  Helen either can't or won't dialog on that level.  I would use the block function if we still had one, but we don't.  And even so, that wouldn't resolve the fact that when people drop by this forum, they are presented with a large amount of what I would describe as Helene-spam.  To a large extent Helene represents this forum.  It also wouldn't change the fact that people who have a lot of great stuff to contribute are leaving - or have left - the forum because of her ubiquitous craizeeeeeee scribbles.

I recall once starting a thread on subtle energies and specifically inviting Helene to share her reiki experiences there; that was one of the few - if not only - threads she never responded to.  There were other threads where I or others asked her to stop posting off-topic replies, and she went into overdrive, blatantly taunting those who had asked her to stay on-topic or stop posting there.  A lot of good threads died.  I originally created the Daily Yak thread because I thought she might like to use it to share her daily babbles and stop using the entire forum as her personal Romper Room.  (A secondary consideration was that it would be a cool place for everybody to share whatever they wanted.)

I've long since given up on trying to hold a conversation WITH Helene, hence I'm speaking here about her; although I respect Tam's ongoing attempt to actually hold a substantive conversation with her on this topic.  Good luck, Liz!

spiral out,

arthur

---

I am seeking meaningful work.

bio: http://aqalicious.gaia.com/

I spend most of my "forum time" these days on The Integral Pod: http://pods.gaia.com/ii/

"You've never seen everything." - Bruce Cockburn

jimtzu:

i have to agree with tiki on this.  that attitude is one of the reasons i don't post here anymore.  i'll continue to "lurk" and am basically staying around for the video content. 

Well, that's a shame, Jim - but you know what?  No matter what the character of the forum is or e/de-volves into, some people are going to be unhappy with the way the forum is, and will leave.  There are lots of green places in cyberspace where everybody can blather on about whatever they want, all the time.  The forum center-of-gravity and overall character will be determined by the form and content of posts on it; if voices like Helene's predominate, the forum will lose a lot of more evolved posters (this has, in fact, occurred).  At this point, that is largely fine with me - there are other I-I forums now which are evolving a different kind of space, and there are other non-I-I forums where integral people can go.  The integralsphere is becoming vast and people can find their niche.

However.  I'm not going to just slink away and tune in elsewhere without also stating my truth in no uncertain terms.  Further, I will doubtless continue to post in Integral Naked, but the kind of posting I do here will be determined by the nature of the space in which I find myself.  I do not find this to be a particularly second-tier space at the present time.

arthur

---

I am seeking meaningful work.

bio: http://aqalicious.gaia.com/

I spend most of my "forum time" these days on The Integral Pod: http://pods.gaia.com/ii/

"You've never seen everything." - Bruce Cockburn

I will simply add to what has been said already, that I have had the same experience when encountering one of Helene's Joycian posts: half the time I can't follow it, the other half it does not appear relevant. 

Helene, your posts generally don't communicate to me, mainly because it seems that you do not engage the rules of grammar nor spend much time composing what you write.  I get the sense from what you write that your world is a marvelous one; I only wish I could understand what you've been saying.

---

One does not discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time. --Andre Gide

Hope is as hollow as fear. --Lao-tzu

it's funny how embeddedness in a perspective can lead one to think that one is being profound, or deep, or 2nd tier, rather than just superficial.  a kind of self appointed ruler and recognizer of what "is really happening."  no matter the obligatory acknowledgment of shadows and assertiveness (it's integral-obligatory dontcha know).  opposing views must be idiot-_________.

i take the time to read helene's posts and fine they are deeper than most.

do me (and us) a favor.  put a link here to what you believe is the worst example of helene's "spam".  i clicked on her name and read her "recent posts" to get an idea of what might possibly be upsetting. i couldn't find any.

here's my shadow (and your trigger)---i don't believe you are getting offline complaints about her.

rock on helene!!!

 

later,

gene

Wow, this is a bit of a tough one.......but after reflection and consideration of both sides of the issue..........

 (Recall this is somewhat similar to the Pi episode in forum #1, in which overall, I supported Pi's right to stay because I and others were possibly learning some important truths about integralism and our process in the forum.  Later though, I did not vigorously oppose Arthur's effort to have him banished as it also became clearer that an underlying unhealthy behavior pattern by Pi was being exhibited).

.......... I have to come down on the side of Arthur and Tam and others........i.e., I think, on balance, the negatives of Helen's posts ususally not seeming at all relevant to the serious discussion/exploration of the subjects at hand, greatly outweigh any esoteric meanings/connections that might exist..........

Some probationary time for Helene restricted to the purgatory of the 7th Circle seems like a humane and useful response by IN officials and the community at large.........

R.K.  

  

---

"No problem can be solved at the level of consciousness that created it in the first place!"

887 Posts on Forum #1; 222 Posts on Forum #2......Member Since 8/8/2003

i think that the public targeting of an individual might be violating the following term of use:

*******************************

Any conduct by you that, at the Program’s discretion, restricts or inhibits any other Member from participating on the Website within the understanding of Integral theory and ethics, will not be permitted.

*******************************

and i've asked the site coordinators to make a decision on it.

 

later,

gene

That's hilarious, Gene.  I've always liked your style.

I do have to say that my participation as a reader and contributor to this forum has been directly affected by Helen's posts.  I can put up with the bizarre grammatical style, as I believe English is not her native tongue, and others have all kinds of quirks in their writing styles.  The thing that always gets me is the unrelatedness of her posts to what seems like every single thread.  I'll be reading along a thread, and then get to Helen's string of "speaking of my children" posts.  Shoulders slump... thread dies...

Helen seems like an amazing person that lives in a world unique to her, with all kinds of amazing experiences.  She loves to communicate those experiences in her own way, all over the place, with complete disregard to context, as far as I can tell.  But who am I to stop her?  She pays the money, she writes the posts.  End of story, as far as I'm concerned.  She certainly isn't being harmful or attacking anyone, etc.  While I agree (mostly) with the sentiment of Arthur's original post, I don't think going around Helen and trying to ban her to certain areas really holds weight.  Which is why I find Gene's approach to be funny.  It obviously (in my opinion) holds no water, but it shows the futility of the situation in an attempt at irony.

Maybe just this thread alone will help Helen see the light.  Doubtful, because I think Helen only sees a light that most of us only wish we could see.  But maybe, just maybe she'll show us a little compassion and make an attempt at communicating in context.  As far as I can see, it's our only hope.

Aeryck

---

Seeking the Unseekable

it's easier to talk the (integral) talk than to walk the (integral) walk. 

to lay the "dying" of IN on the shoulders of one person is a bit much.  what other reasons could there be?  hmmmm?

Helen doesn't play by your rules, it bothers you.

Helen doesn't play by my rules, it doesn't bother me.

That might make me more tolerant, it doesn't make me an idiot(just for the record)

Any meaningful effort at inclusiveness is not automatically a sign of mean greenness, green has a healthy side too. I detect a suggestion you are placing yourself on that second tier pedestal again, suggesting I'd understand better if only I was as evolved as you? Fine, but then you need to communicate with the rest of us where we are.

When we elect you king of the world you can decide who gets to play. Oh dear, this is like the mod debate all over again.

I do acknowledge you have tried other ways at other times, if I was on the receiving end I'd feel hounded. You cannot make someone else conform to your standards. I may not like some things some people say, but I'd defend to the death their right to say it.

Liz

 

coppersun:

i think that the public targeting of an individual might be violating the following term of use:

*******************************

Any conduct by you that, at the Program’s discretion, restricts or inhibits any other Member from participating on the Website within the understanding of Integral theory and ethics, will not be permitted.

*******************************

On the other hand, that "term of use" could just as well be interpreted from the point of view that Helen is inhibiting other Members from participating on this Website by being a "thread killer ..."

I feel very, very conflicted about this. I have a fondness for you and your wild whimsy, Helen. Every now and then you hit the nail on the head in a most surprising, refreshing way. But I admit I don't always read your posts. If I am in a thread that interests me, and I come across a post of yours that doesn't speak that much to me, I simply skip over it. Generally this doesn't bother me. That's what scroll bars are for ...

Yet I know that other people are bothered by it, particularly because it can cause a thread to peter out prematurely. (Hmmm ... do we need integral viagara?) I've seen several open exchanges about this on IN in its many incarnations, most recently in Spiral Dynamics Game.

And if people become so discouraged by threads that dwindle off into "spammish," off-topic posts that they give up and leave, or new folks visit Integral Naked and see a lot of stuff that doesn't make much sense -- I can understand Arthur's concern about how Integral is perceived ...

What if we were able to have a rule that would apply anytime a thread-starter starts to see postings that they perceive to be spammish and off-topic? For thread-starters who do not like seeing that in their threads, they could offer the "offender" (for lack of a better word) a gentle public warning within the thread. If that warning is not heeded, site administrators could be contacted, and that poster could be blocked from writing further responses to that thread. I don't know if the software here has that capacity. But if it does, that might be a workable solution.

And Tam-Liz, I really really loved what you wrote here, so compassionately including all sides of the situation. Thank you.

Keep on keeping on,

Mary

 

---

Let the beauty we love be what we do.
There are hundreds of ways to kneel and kiss the ground.

~Rumi

Hey guys, we've been here before - as some will remember, on the former former forum.  We had a long thread about just this issue.  It didn't lead anywhere good. (And yes, mea culpa, I know that I'm not exactly a stranger to controversy myself).  So. Why don't we see this as a valuable opportunity which Arthur has given us (think Groundhog Day), to get it more right this time and, to pick up Jim's phrase, try to walk the integral talk?  What's the integral way forward, assuming that it isn't civil war?

I like Liz/Tam's instinct of going second person.  Helen, you're definitely going to be reading a thread with a title like this.  It would really help if you were to engage and share your thoughts about this....

good wishes to all

David

 

 

 

---

'This is all the time you'll ever have'.
~ Dr Hannibal Lecter