Well said Janne, there are administrators out there for a reason. I think when they read this thread, and all the posts in threads that are considered 'non-logical', they will have enough information with which to draw conclusions, and an action or two. It's their responsibility to make the final decision.

(Heheh, also I for one would like to see how our 'integral leaders' would deal with an issue such as this, perhaps a topic for integral naked? I'm sure it would be a good thing for them to contemplate and then have to act upon. Not to negate our own integral opinions, just to include theirs also)

One love,

Wicke

---

mornin' sunshine

IAMisHome:

Adastra,

Don't you believe the people really different of ourselves are those giving us the most useful material to learn?

Not Hélène is very different of myself  but she is certainly one of the posters giving me the most helpful insights.  I really don't understand how we can be on Integral Naked site and deny the expression of someone, basicly respectuous and polite.

I'm against your request.

IAM, this has nothing to do with Helene's differences or what I may learn from them.  This is about someone running around scrawling in crayon all over the threads of IN; it is about proper placement, not a disrespect of what someone has to say.  It is also not a personal attack on Helen per se, but on what she does here, the way she behaves.  People are going to see this, or they won't - and if the latter, nothing I say at this point is going to convince you and you will see me as nothing but a nazi prick trying to stomp all over someone's precious freedom of expression.

For those who seem to think it is about a bit of off-topic posting, there is a huge difference between that and what Helene does.  But if you can't see by now, nothing I can add will convince you. 

I agree with Liz that the Powers-That-Be have seemingly abandoned this forum.  I totally understand that; they have bigger fish to fry. 

At this point it may be of great benefit to have Helene around - a certain number of people are going to upgrade their memberships to general sponsorship level so they can post in Helene-free forums; others, of course, will go elsewhere.  IN can remain the bastion of complete, rule-free, all-encompassing and non-discriminating tolerance.  If that's your thing, enjoy!

Any shared space operates by rules, either explicit or implicit - often a combination of both - and if an implicit rule of IN is that filling up any and every thread with your own stream of consciousness graffiti, unconnected to the thread you are on or what others are saying there is not only OK but actively encouraged, then so be it.

When I was a facilitator I proposed at one point that there be an entire forum where anybody could post whatever they wanted, completely unmoderated; I even suggested that the whole IN forum could be run that way.  Well, here we are. 

I doubt I'll have much more to say on this thread.  Two different perspectives have been offered of what this space is all about, and it seems clear to me which one will win out. 

It would actually please me at this point, in a perverse kind of way, if several more Helene-style posters joined the forum; it might clarify things for some people.

passing the talking stick,
arthur

---

I am seeking meaningful work.

bio: http://aqalicious.gaia.com/

I spend most of my "forum time" these days on The Integral Pod: http://pods.gaia.com/ii/

"You've never seen everything." - Bruce Cockburn

are we all going to hell now?  i'm not!

dear Arthur , am i unbreakable? just because i ripped up Tara's image, as per my post elswere, it doesn't mean She knows not what is true in my heart....

seeing the many through the eyes of the One will never fool 'That'..... which is trustworthy.

Tara  

What?

I would think, if it were I whose behaviors were the topic of discussion, I would take a step back and see why some have posted what they have. (Hint)

Perhaps I am reading your post in a manner other than intended?

It's coming across as 'Arthur, Nah, Nah, nuh, nah nah'.

Not a good move, if that was the motivation.

---

In a black and white picture....there's a lot of grey junk

just because its sunday and i'd rather be in bed all day dont mean i need all kinds of attention of nothing but sweetness an' gushing:(

yah! lets pick on arthur! rrrrrrrrr

  Stick around "h"

Well, folks, this is vintage Helene, so dig it.

No, Helen, you are unbreakable because nothing anyone says appears to touch you in any meaningful way.  You are unbrakeable because you just really can't help yourself and nothing will stop you.

You're a clown-troll spammer because...well, but at this point people either see it or they don't.  Some people essentially agree with me (on the thread and/or in PM's) so I'm obviously not just insane.

Here's the thing.  All forums deal with this kind of stuff.  No, wait, what I should say is: many forums deal with this stuff.  All forums have it.  Most often the solution is to have a thread where you put outrageously off-topic thread-killing stuff.  And if someone is a lavish producer of such material, they will be shown the door; hopefully following suitable warnings, etc. 

Let me make a slight diversion here.  I work as a clerical in a library.  Libraries are cool places, inclusive and open.  They are for everyone who - and here's the thing - can respect the nature of that shared space.  People come in and read, have conversations, hold meetings in the meeting rooms etc.  Say someone was coming in and running around playfully, cheerfully shouting giberish into people's faces.  Now, some people may find that very entertaining.  Some people would find it distracting.  If the rules (explicit or implicit) were: everybody has the right to express themselves in any manner, everywhere, at all times, then nothing would be done, and people who didn't like to have gibberish shouted into their face would stop coming there.  Maybe it would be better to ask the person to stop shouting gibberish all over the place.  Another solution would be to have a gibberish-talking room: you want to talk and/or listen to gibberish?  First door on the left!

But perhaps libraries are the wrong metaphor.  Most areas just have one.  How about cafes?  Well, that cafe over on Main st., The Havering Holon?  [Haver: v.i. 1. To maunder; to talk foolishly; to chatter.]  I only drop by occasionally, you know, when I'm in the mood for that kind of thing - it's hard to hold a serious conversation for long.  Pointless to even try, really.  Most often I hang out at Cognitive Dissidents, it's way cool.  People sit at various tables and have discussions on all kinds of things.  Some serious, some playful.  Each table has it's own topic of discussion.  Oh, sure, people ramble off into other side topics, and insert playful comments and teasing here and there, but usually things come back on topic sooner or later.   We used to kick the babblers out and send them over to The Havering Holon, but then we got this really cool idea to have a Goof Off zone, a separate room where people can just go off on any topic they like, wander around, interrupt each other etc.  Anybody who can’t do much but havering is sent over there.   It works out really well.

Except, that will never happen in Integral Naked, as long as the operating principle is to never, ever, try to stop anyone from expressing themselves in any manner, anywhere, at any time.  And for the love of snakes on a plane, don’t do anything to upset or disrespect anyone!  Feelings might get hurt!  

Spiral out,

arthur

---

I am seeking meaningful work.

bio: http://aqalicious.gaia.com/

I spend most of my "forum time" these days on The Integral Pod: http://pods.gaia.com/ii/

"You've never seen everything." - Bruce Cockburn

After seeing Helne's asinine response...

I'd have to agree that maybe there needs to be a containment, or complaints sent to the moderators.....

V

---

In a black and white picture....there's a lot of grey junk

Arthur,

I do see what you are saying, even if I don't agree with how you propose to deal with it.

It's not about the whole place being an uncensored playpark, but if Helen gets shut down because she annoys you, and other people have taken issue to the language some people use, so we shut them down for swearing, and someone else wants to show the forum to their mother, but there's the odd sexually explicit remark..............once you start with this there's no end to it.

In theory off topic or "spam" posts could be moved to another place, but the truth is we have no-one to do that and even if we did they wouldn't have the time or energy to scan every thread.It seems what we need is some kind of agreement, which would require Helen to engage and discuss seriously. None of us can insist on that.

I have trouble with the idea of "banning" someone who has never started an argument, used offensive language, exposed personal information or done any of the range of possibly offensive things people might agree should need tackled.

And your last post suggests that if we ,in general, don't agree with you, you'll simply take your ball and play elsewhere. In terms of an engagement in a dialogue, that's not helpful.

Helen, is there any way you would consider sharing what moves you to post as you do. If it's not the topic in hand, and I know sometimes it isn't as I have seen you post on threads you admit you have not read, what is it? You obviously want to contribute, but if the subject doesn't interest you, why don't you start a thread on something that does? How do you feel about this thread? You've made a couple of comments so you are reading it. I'd really like to see a solution to this that doesn't involve clipping your wings. If this community means anything to me, it has to include a responsibility for treating each other with a bit of gentleness and kindness, even when we disagree.

Liz  

Vortex:

After seeing Helne's asinine response... I'd have to agree that maybe there needs to be a containment, or complaints sent to the moderators..... V

There are no moderators, bwahahahahahahahaha!

Or, to quote Laurie Anderson

Jump out of the plane.  There.  Is.  No. Pilot.

(However, there are snakes.  On a plane!) 

arthur

---

I am seeking meaningful work.

bio: http://aqalicious.gaia.com/

I spend most of my "forum time" these days on The Integral Pod: http://pods.gaia.com/ii/

"You've never seen everything." - Bruce Cockburn

adastra:

coppersun:

here's my shadow (and your trigger)---i don't believe you are getting offline complaints about her.

Ah.  Well now, that is a claim that I'm lying.  I answer thus: you're seeing some of that feedback in this very thread now. 

if you're referring to other members of the old IN clique, it's obvious that that offline shit is going on.

i use the term clique, for the first time, because a picture just snapped into place in my mind. the complaints about not being able to access the old IN . . . the closed-tight-knit atmosphere that i sensed among certain members (i wasn't paying attention, until now, whether i was in general community forums OR IN THE IN SECTION) . . . you are trying to preserve your established community . .  you are being possessive and are trying to preserve your role whatever you consider it to be . . . adastra---no. 1 poster yet again

the library seemed pretty quiet to me until somebody started this dust up.  it's got the tact of a hockey player mentality.  bertuzzi is not a vancouver exception it seems.

"hey there jethro, looks like somebody come to town that ain't talkin like the rest of us. ah think if'n we tell sheriff pickens he'll take care o that fer shur."

later,

gene

 

Vortex:

After seeing Helne's asinine response... I'd have to agree that maybe there needs to be a containment, or complaints sent to the moderators..... V

stop talking like that!!  people are going to wander by here and what will they think of integral then !!??

i am so embarrassed!

later,

gene

coppersun:

adastra:

coppersun:

here's my shadow (and your trigger)---i don't believe you are getting offline complaints about her.

Ah.  Well now, that is a claim that I'm lying.  I answer thus: you're seeing some of that feedback in this very thread now. 

if you're referring to other members of the old IN clique, it's obvious that that offline shit is going on.

i use the term clique, for the first time, because a picture just snapped into place in my mind. the complaints about not being able to access the old IN . . . the closed-tight-knit atmosphere that i sensed among certain members (i wasn't paying attention, until now, whether i was in general community forums OR IN THE IN SECTION) . . . you are trying to preserve your established community . .  you are being possessive and are trying to preserve your role whatever you consider it to be . . . adastra---no. 1 poster yet again

the library seemed pretty quiet to me until somebody started this dust up.  it's got the tact of a hockey player mentality.  bertuzzi is not a vancouver exception it seems.

"hey there jethro, looks like somebody come to town that ain't talkin like the rest of us. ah think if'n we tell sheriff pickens he'll take care o that fer shur."

later,

gene

lol - I was wondering if that particular snake was going to rear it's head on this plane.  Well, there is literally no way I can defend myself against a charge like that - so, please, do carry on.

Tiki, this thread started as an open request, by me, to anyone who may be running this place - supposedly Corey.  I did so openly instead of secretly so that others could offer their own perspectives.  Mission accomplished! 

This is the part where the thread is supposed to descend into indisputably first-tier open warfare.  Well, I've seen that movie before and I'm not interested in putting my snakes on that plane again.  It leads to bombed-out ruins and refugees.

love and metta,
arthur

---

I am seeking meaningful work.

bio: http://aqalicious.gaia.com/

I spend most of my "forum time" these days on The Integral Pod: http://pods.gaia.com/ii/

"You've never seen everything." - Bruce Cockburn

Hi Folks,

I haven't posted in a while.  I had over 1000 posts in the original forum.  I haven't read this entire thread but I remember someone named Helen who posted a lot back in the old days.  I found her painfully annoying and a continual distraction to what was being discussed.   If this Helene is the same person, I have to support Adastra's idea, 100%. 

 

Hey Zenman

Nice to see you back.    Yes, Helen and Helene are one and the same.

Oh, and as an aside: someone in a PM mentioned that she almost missed a new post by someone because the thread had been "Helened".  Other people have complained about the same phenomenon in the past. 

spiral out,

arthur

---

I am seeking meaningful work.

bio: http://aqalicious.gaia.com/

I spend most of my "forum time" these days on The Integral Pod: http://pods.gaia.com/ii/

"You've never seen everything." - Bruce Cockburn